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Convincing the ultimate sceptic - need really solid proof!

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HaM_SaNdWiCh
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Convincing the ultimate sceptic - need really solid proof!
PostPosted: Tue 23 May, 2006  Reply with quote

Here's the deal ; recently, I decided to try and introduce LD's to one of my good friends whom I've known since preschool. As soon as I explained the idea of controlling dreams to him, he brushed it off as impossible right away, quite different than what I expected would happen. All of a sudden my open minded friend turned into the most stubborn, close-minded person I've ever seen. We've gone on for cumulative hours, with me making absolutely no progress so far. Even though me and two other friends have experienced many LD's, he accuses us of being liers.

I know LDing is real, but to have one of my best friends not believe this is like an irritating itch that can't be scratched, and I just need to make him a believer! I'm aware of the experiment Laberge used with eye movements to signal researchers, but my friend wont have any of it. If anyone can provide some links to some reputable sites with really solid evidence (no geocities or other cheap host sites) then I'd be greatful. Thanks!


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Mohegan
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PostPosted: Tue 23 May, 2006  Reply with quote

Personally I would say goto your library. Since LDing is proven, you should find some good "scientific" books relating to LDing.

It's one thing to dispute websites, it's not so easy to just print a book on the subject and have someone say it's not real.


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Sepultura123
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PostPosted: Tue 23 May, 2006  Reply with quote

Dont do so much hard work to try to bring your friend to LD.

If he dont believe at all and say its just in your head then he will probably never have a interest in Lucid Dreaming.


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Bullseye
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PostPosted: Tue 23 May, 2006  Reply with quote

Sounds like you should just give up on him, but as you get better at LDs, maybe tell him about your lucid adventures wink

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Mohegan
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PostPosted: Tue 23 May, 2006  Reply with quote

I would have to disagree with giving up on him. I wouldn't say go out and convince him, because he sounds steadfast so he isn't going to be swayed by any proof. But evidence of it's possibility might just open him to the possibility. The more pushy you get the more he will stick to his convictions.

What I would suggest, is in your free time if you have nothing else to do. Find some good evidence and scientific facts on the subject, whether on educational sites or in books. Then pass on the list and let him review it, note things that could be important and leave it with him.

Let him decide on his own just from what you hand him whether it's worth going into deeper, if he wishes to do so he can then come to you for more information or look things up on his own. Or indeed he may just write it off as hogwash and bin it.


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nightshade
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PostPosted: Tue 23 May, 2006  Reply with quote

How about this?

Quote:

Figure 1. A typical signal-verified lucid dream. Four channels of physiological data (central EEG [C3-A2], left and right eye-movements [LOC and ROC], and chin muscle tone [EMG]) from the last 8 min of a 30 min REM period are shown. Upon awakening the subject reported having made five eye movement signals (labeled 1-5 in figure). The first signal (1, LRLR) marked the onset of lucidity. Skin potential potential artifacts can be observed in the EEG at this point. During the following 90 s the subject "flew about" exploring his dream world until he believed he had awakened, at which point he made the signal for awakening (2, LRLRLRLR). This signal, made in non-lucid REM shows that the precise correspondence between eye movements and gaze is not an artifact of lucidity. After another 90 s, the subject realized he was still dreaming and signaled (3) with three pairs of eye movements. Realizing that this was too many, he correctly signaled with two pairs (4). Finally, upon awakening 100 s later he signaled appropriately (5, LRLRLRLR). [Calibrations are 50 microV and 5 s.]


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MatrixManNe0
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PostPosted: Wed 24 May, 2006  Reply with quote

You should enter his dream and do or say something that would be memorable and do or say that same thing the next day. Of course, provided you can shared dream...

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Basilus West
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PostPosted: Wed 24 May, 2006  Reply with quote

The main scientifical researches on LD'ing have been leaded by Pr Stephen Laberge at Stanford, Pr Paul Tholey (Germany) and more recently by Pr Antonio Zadra at the Sacre Coeur Hospital, Quebec. A 2000 pages philosophy thesis was written in France by Christian Bouchet. Pr Stephen Laberge work is recognized by the leading french sleep reasearcher Pr Michel Jouvet (the one who found REM sleep) and there is a Stephen Laberge's article on the sleep laboratory website in Lyons.

Thus, if your friend doesn't accept those many evidences - and mainly the fact that lucid dream is recognized by science for 20 years so that you can write an article about LD'ing in scientific newspapers without being called a madman, he must have a big problem. Notice that if he doesn't want to heard anything about the main scientific researches that have been leaded about LD'ing, his point of view cannot been considered as scientific and he must have a psychological block.

Two possibilities: 1)he confuses LD'ing and paranormal stuff (OBE/astral/SD). 2)he has pseudo-psychoanalytical beliefs about unconscious - then notice too that it's possible to find Freud's or Jung's excerpts about the possibility of being aware of dreaming. 3)he just want to contradict you. 4)he fears of LD'ing for an unknown reason.

I think the best would be to know what are his beliefs about the impossibility of controling dreams before trying to convince him and why he doesn't want to hear anything about LaBerge.


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Tw15t3r
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PostPosted: Sat 27 May, 2006  Reply with quote

MatrixManNe0 wrote:
You should enter his dream and do or say something that would be memorable and do or say that same thing the next day. Of course, provided you can shared dream...


Ya this would be a gr8 idea! 8D , unfortunately, if he is totally bad at recalling dreams, he might not remember u doing that.


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electron
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PostPosted: Sat 27 May, 2006  Reply with quote

and if he reads this thread, and finds people who believe in shared dreaming .. he would just reject the idea even more smile

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Undefined
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PostPosted: Sat 03 Jun, 2006  Reply with quote

Introduce him to the forums. If he still thinks that an entire forum of people are lying, have a lucid dream and whack him in the mouth.

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Shaper
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PostPosted: Sun 04 Jun, 2006  Reply with quote

If he is not convinced by what you've already told him, maybe you shouldn't waste any energy trying to convince him. Most of the proof we can offer here is the same type of proof you will find in a book or on a website anyway...it's either that, or he still doesn't truely understand what lucid dreaming is. Maybe he's getting it confused with other paranormal things like Basilus West said.

If you'd like to show him a website, this is a good one - www.lucidity.com
That is the official website of the lucidity institute, headed by Dr. LaBerge himself.


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The HB
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PostPosted: Sun 04 Jun, 2006  Reply with quote

This topic reminds me of one of my friends... he thinks all LDers are hippies going around in tie dye vans talking about dreams while doing unspeakable things. I have tried to tell him otherwise, but he wont listen at all... great fun trying to do it though. Hopefully you can convince your friend, and maybe i can convince mine aswell, who believes that LDing is brought on by hyperactivity or narcotics and stuff...


Link to My DJ: ld4all.com
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Wissam
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PostPosted: Wed 07 Jun, 2006  Reply with quote

I think this friend of yours will never beleive in it as he gets to watch you try so hard. it doesnt matter what he thinks..just tell him:

"Ok, fine there is no such thing as LD, Stephen Lebarge made it up along with many other professors and of course the millions of websites on LDing..are all lies"

Smile and don't bring it up
smile


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MatrixManNe0
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PostPosted: Wed 07 Jun, 2006  Reply with quote

Perhaps just explain to him that LD'ing is simply knowing you're dreaming. Many people have randomly had this before (I think...), but haven't really done anything about it in the dream.

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