This is hell

Paradise Lost is a fascinating story, by the way.

way better then Dante’s Inferno, IMO.

If I believed in Heaven and Hell, I’d say the Hell described in Dante’s Inferno would probably be the most accurate. After all, assuming Satan were real, wouldn’t you expect more ingenuity from the “Prince Of Evil” than just tossing everyone into flames?

I like the way it’s all described in “Constantine

"John Constantine: Heaven and hell are right here, behind every wall, every window, the world behind the world. And we’re smack in the middle. "

It’s very similar to how Milton expresses it in “Paradise lost” How you can amek this place you own heaven or your own hell.
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The Bible says Lucifer was cast down to the Earth, not hell. Hell is an invention of the church, really the Bible is speaking of a “lake of fire” that all the sinners are cast into after Jesus comes back and God judges everyone.

Medieval belief: Satan was thrown down and created a conic tunnel in Earth which became hell (see “Divina Commedia” for more info), with the devil at the very bottom, which was the point farthest from God in the ptolemaic conception of the universe.

While the comparison between a hellish plane and this wonderful world is very viable, the belief that hell and the devil are somewhere underground is a little outdated.

For that conception though, hell is housed by this planet, it’s somewhere within it, yes.

okso let me get somethingstraight.

you think it looks like this.

----- Heaven

o Earth

####### Hell

and the devil fell" from heven to hell as in moving down.

well i think that is a little strange, the idea of there being a higher and slower. so i propose this.

it doesnt look like the model above, instead it looks like this

.

that is heven, it is earth and it is hell. All there. Just depends on what preception you take, and where you mind is currently that makes the rest of the stuff around it.

I was taught in school that heaven and hell are really states of mind, not places.

Anyway, does this feel like hell? As long as not everyone agrees on that, I don’t think that could be the case. I think heaven and hell are supposed to be absolute, not subjective.

On an unrelated note, that reminds me of the Blackadder episode where he tries to convince the nobleman that he is going to go to hell, but that evil people like him enjoy the place.

one mans trash is the next mans trasure.

One mans pain is the next mas pleasure.

If this is tru, can there ever really be a hevan and hell?

if say someone loved to be hurt, they couldnt go to hell because this would be their heven. so therefor they would go to heven with would be there hell… in doing so would this not make heven hell for everyone else there?

i personal dont belive there is either heven or hell, i beleive what happens after you die is what you expect ot happen. If you think you will go to heven you will, hell it is? sure. If you expect there will be nothing then you will be right too.

And if you are like me and expect it to be what ever you expect then it is probally gonig to be one big long expereince, just like a lucid dream

Hell is everything you don’t want. Many things can be hell for people, even those without a doorway with scary inscriptions on it, high temperatures, or imitations of people.

One can be in hell even if such a place doesn’t exist. Nobody likes hell, if hell is their hell.

fair nuff

Where is that in the Bible? If you can please give me book chapter and verse.

The best view point of Hell is in the play Dr. Faustus (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Faustus) The demon that is under Faustus’ control describes Hell as any place where God is not present.

Revelations 12:7
7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelations 20:14
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Read these verses in context before you go refuting me, you guys. :wink:

I figured it was from Revelations.

Now the question is wasn’t Revelations after Satan’s original fall from Heaven?

Satan was present since the time of Adam and Eve. So that means that he had to have fallen prior to the incident’s described in Revelations.

Revelations is exactly what the title says: it is the Revelation, or Vision, of John.

Yes and no. Much of the book is prophetic, so much of what it describes has not yet transpired. It is a divine vision that John had. And as alot of you well know, the concept of linear time is not exactly held in high esteem during these moments of clarity. Some is reffering to the past, and some the future.

If Lucifer’s fall is not described in the verses from Revelations I gave to you, then what do those verses describe? And where in the Bible does it speak of the “real” fall?

Those verses do describe a fall of Lucifer’s. The one that is told about in Revelations is the one that is going to occur during the end of days that John is seeing.

Interesting hmm its fun to see how people that think they know their religion react when you find somthing they didn’t know.

Wait, Lucifer’s supposed to fall again? That’s silly, fall from where?

See? IN HEAVEN. Obviously Lucifer has to be in heaven for him to fight in it.

This passage tells you that the place of Lucifer and his angels was in heaven before the war with Michael and his angels.

And I pose the question again, if these verses in Revelations do not describe the original fall of Lucifer, then where are the verses found that do?

He doesn’t have to be in Heaven to fight there.

Since this is talking about things that have not happened yet since this is talking about the end of days Lucifer attempts to fight back and goes back into Heaven and challenges God once again.

Where exactly his original fall is I don’t know. But if you think about it these verses are talking about somethign that has not yet happened.

:eh: Does he have really long arms?

Again, I point to the passage, “neither was their place found anymore in heaven.” That sentance explicitly states that before the battle, Lucifer’s place was in heaven.

And if anyone knows any other verses discussing the fall of Lucifer, or a passage that tells of "the fall before the one in revelations :roll: ", please, let me know!

Again, I point to the passage, “neither was their place found anymore in heaven.” That sentance explicitly states that before the battle, Lucifer’s place was in heaven.

That doesn’t really mean that he belonged there in the directly before this… I mean, it isn’t my place any more to eat baby food. But it has been that way for a long time. It’s not like that just happened yesterday.

Also, you can’t really say that he would have to be in heaven to fight there. For one, don’t we say that God is in heaven. But he is on Earth. But if he’s in heaven he can’t be on Earth. Get the point? Also number two, what if it is a tad metaphorical. I’m no Bible buff, but I do know there are plenty of not so explicitly labeled metaphors. Perhaps, it was his minions? If GW Bush sends troops into Iraq, but is beaten, he doesn’t even have to set foot in the country to be declared the loser of the battle.

I also would like to point out that it is possible that it was translated odd, which does happen, and by being cast out into the earth, he was cast out into the Universe OTHER than Heaven. From there perhaps he went back to his Hell, or perhaps this is just another metaphor.

Or perhaps, this may sound crazy, but he WAS on earth when he tempted Jesus, now wasn’t he. That doesn’t mean that this is Hell. If it makes it easier, He was cast out of Heaven, landed on Earth, then created a HQ in Hell, but comes to Earth to tempt people. Then at the end of days, he breaks back into Heaven, which starts the war.

Anyway, I usually try to stay away from Bible fights, because I believe that Christianity is flawed. The bible was written not by God, but by men. And it has been translated. Any one who studies languages can tell you that a near perfect translation can still lose the “meaning” of the word.
I gave you some possibilities that I thought of, now I am done. Say what you will, I’ve said my part.