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If shared dreaming exists......

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Paulius
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PostPosted: Wed 14 Nov, 2012  Reply with quote

dB_FTS wrote:
Make a research on Dr. Stuart Hameroff...


Yeah, sure... Looking at his biography I've found this nice gem:
Quote:
Hameroff argued that these subneuronal cytoskeleton components could be the basic units of processing rather than the neurons themselves.


This makes me think why he is a "Dr." in the first place. Utter nonsense.

And this is just one nonsense theory of his utterly nonsense research on consciousness. He even tried adapting Quantum Physics to Human anatomy???!!!
That is outrageous. And you trust him in the field of shared dreams, where it is more of a belief rather than science.

Not a scientist. Period.



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Dragonmind
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PostPosted: Wed 14 Nov, 2012  Reply with quote

Here's the full quote:
Quote:
 The main substance of this book dealt with the scope for information processing in biological tissue and especially in microtubules and other parts of the cytoskeleton. Hameroff argued that these subneuronal cytoskeleton components could be the basic units of processing rather than the neurons themselves. The book was primarily concerned with information processing, with consciousness secondary at this stage.


I personally would like to hear why if this is nonsense and what your own theory is. Because as far as I theorize, he is right.
To me, I think that the nerves in the crytoskeleton PROCESS the information, then use the neurons to transfer signals to the brain.
I would like to be proven wrong though, I do change ideas after all.



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shatterspike1
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PostPosted: Wed 14 Nov, 2012  Reply with quote

Paulius wrote:

Unfortunately, isn't even theoretically possible.


Care to qualify that statement?

Personally, I find it ridiculously unlikely, but I don't see the harm in attempting. If shared dreaming DOES exist, it most likely exists in a form that no one would recognize, such as seeing synchronous events with different forms (kind of like how the hero's journey appears in different stories). It would be impossible to prove if it existed in that form and totally irrelevant, so that would be just a belief structure. On the other hand, if it does exist in a recognizable form, chances are it's so rare that it might as well not exist, and that any reports of it could be chalked up to "anecdotal evidence" or even a chance two people independently had the same dream. It definitely doesn't have a place scientifically either way.

In terms of the anesthesiologist, he's probably just a quack. There is an interesting question about consciousness in how it comes to be, but the jury's still out on that.


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dB_FTS
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PostPosted: Wed 14 Nov, 2012  Reply with quote

Paulius wrote:
dB_FTS wrote:
Make a research on Dr. Stuart Hameroff...


Yeah, sure... Looking at his biography I've found this nice gem:
Quote:
Hameroff argued that these subneuronal cytoskeleton components could be the basic units of processing rather than the neurons themselves.


This makes me think why he is a "Dr." in the first place. Utter nonsense.

And this is just one nonsense theory of his utterly nonsense research on consciousness. He even tried adapting Quantum Physics to Human anatomy???!!!
That is outrageous. And you trust him in the field of shared dreams, where it is more of a belief rather than science.

Not a scientist. Period.


Well Paulius, if scientists would say that this or that is not possible and that's the end of the story we would still be in stone age. You have to make a hypothesis and theory and be prepare to be proven wrong or right. It doesn't make a scientist if you say the right thing to the right group of people. You need to have courage and take a leap of faith in ways that no one else did. That's what he is actually doing.

Quote:
And you trust him in the field of shared dreams, where it is more of a belief rather than science.

He's not talking about SD's. He is talking about possibility that consciousness can exist outside the body. Which can lead(by my understanding of things) to a SD!

And if he is going to be proved wrong it doesn't matter. But if we was proved right the things will change as the view points. And that's what a scientist is, oh and the school...

Oh and primary he's a anesthesiologist, like I said make a research. Don't just take out what you don't like and quote it. Take a look at the bigger picture and have an opened mind...



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Paulius
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PostPosted: Wed 14 Nov, 2012  Reply with quote

Dragonmind wrote:
I personally would like to hear why if this is nonsense and what your own theory is. Because as far as I theorize, he is right.

The leading theory in this field, and a lot simpler one is that neurons function simply as a wire. They do not compute anything.
The chemical reactions involved are pretty simple, it has been studied down to the atomic level:
The electrical impulses travel in the form of charges, caused by ions such as sodium or calcium. Every damn biology text book says that, while microtubules have nothing to do with this.
Microtubules are simple components (that form a part of the cytoskeleton), that are required for keeping the structure of the cell intact, making sure that various substances get transported where they need to be transported, and it also plays a part in cell division. That's it. No computers, no processors, no consciousness or anything.

I can't frankly find any good articles from this "scientist". What I find is the refutations of his articles.

shatterspike1 wrote:
Care to qualify that statement?

That is pretty obvious. For shared dreaming to be possible, humans or, at least their brains must have a way to communicate telepathically, in a wireless way. The brain has been studied in all possible ways. No one has ever found any systems that could do this job.

On an optimistic perspective, talking about dream sharing by using wires, it might actually be possible in a far future. There is lots of research going on how to it. Evidence says that mechanical devices may be connected to neurons (therefore, the brain) and send & receive signals. That might allow shared dreaming, but it would not be a natural way.



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Paulius
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PostPosted: Wed 14 Nov, 2012  Reply with quote

dB_FTS wrote:
Well Paulius, if scientists would say that this or that is not possible and that's the end of the story we would still be in stone age. You have to make a hypothesis and theory and be prepare to be proven wrong or right. It doesn't make a scientist if you say the right thing to the right group of people. You need to have courage and take a leap of faith in ways that no one else did. That's what he is actually doing.


There is a difference between a hypothesis that has some potential and a hypothesis that is outright speculation, utter nonsense, and an insult to human biology.

That's the equivalent of saying that apples are conscious and are able to think. Sure, yeah, don't reject a hypothesis! It might turn out to be right in the end... Long live the great emperor, the Apple!



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Dragonmind
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PostPosted: Thu 15 Nov, 2012  Reply with quote

So if we can't communicate wirelessly, then why not test with ourselves wired up!
Right.
1. It wouuld hurt
2. It would hurt
3. We might need LSD
4. How about another idea.

Potentially, binaural beats could create certain mind states. Using sound to sync brains maybe? Could the box in Inception possibly be a... nevermind, I have no idea on how it syncs everyone together unless there was some other equipment.



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shatterspike1
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PostPosted: Thu 15 Nov, 2012  Reply with quote

Paulius wrote:

That is pretty obvious. For shared dreaming to be possible, humans or, at least their brains must have a way to communicate telepathically, in a wireless way. The brain has been studied in all possible ways. No one has ever found any systems that could do this job.


Ah, see? Clarifying that leads us to an understanding. True, the brain lacks any sort of region for this, but you're talking to people who are more likely Soul-body dualists than not. Theoretically IMPOSSIBLE? No, there's always room for error. Theoretically a snowball's chance in hell? Well, yeah. But only in the way that gravity is "just a theory". It's not falsifiable anyway, so Newton's Flaming Lazer Sword.

The wired shared dreaming thing is cool, although I can't imagine it being available to any but the richest. Pre-singularity, anyway.


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dB_FTS
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PostPosted: Thu 15 Nov, 2012  Reply with quote

Paulius wrote:
dB_FTS wrote:
Well Paulius, if scientists would say that this or that is not possible and that's the end of the story we would still be in stone age. You have to make a hypothesis and theory and be prepare to be proven wrong or right. It doesn't make a scientist if you say the right thing to the right group of people. You need to have courage and take a leap of faith in ways that no one else did. That's what he is actually doing.


There is a difference between a hypothesis that has some potential and a hypothesis that is outright speculation, utter nonsense, and an insult to human biology.

That's the equivalent of saying that apples are conscious and are able to think. Sure, yeah, don't reject a hypothesis! It might turn out to be right in the end... Long live the great emperor, the Apple!


So you are saying that what we know is complete knowledge and there is no possibility to change that knowledge in any way?



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Paulius
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PostPosted: Thu 15 Nov, 2012  Reply with quote

dB_FTS wrote:
So you are saying that what we know is complete knowledge and there is no possibility to change that knowledge in any way?


I was saying that our knowledge advances through sane and rational thinking.



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Paulius
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PostPosted: Thu 15 Nov, 2012  Reply with quote

Dragonmind wrote:
So if we can't communicate wirelessly, then why not test with ourselves wired up!
Right.
1. It wouuld hurt
2. It would hurt
3. We might need LSD
4. How about another idea.


Hah, I wouldn't mind some pain, provided that I get an awesome shared dream in return :D



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dB_FTS
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PostPosted: Thu 15 Nov, 2012  Reply with quote

Paulius wrote:
dB_FTS wrote:
So you are saying that what we know is complete knowledge and there is no possibility to change that knowledge in any way?


I was saying that our knowledge advances through sane and rational thinking.


Yeah but you are saying that we know everything possible about brain and there is no room for any more knowledge, that what we know is just IT!



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shatterspike1
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PostPosted: Thu 15 Nov, 2012  Reply with quote

dB_FTS wrote:
Yeah but you are saying that we know everything possible about brain and there is no room for any more knowledge, that what we know is just IT!


I think it's more like "We're probably not going to find the little known telepathy lobe". Shared dreaming as thing independent from brain function? Can't be disproved because it's not measurable. Still a belief system, but we shouldn't try to justify our metaphysical beliefs through pseudo-science.


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Paulius
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PostPosted: Thu 15 Nov, 2012  Reply with quote

dB_FTS wrote:
Yeah but you are saying that we know everything possible about brain and there is no room for any more knowledge, that what we know is just IT!


Of course there is room for some findings and the research is going on (that's why we have things like neuroscience), but, as shatterspike1 said, there isn't really much room for shared dreaming. Breakthroughs of that kind are practically impossible.



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immagini
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Nov, 2012  Reply with quote

[quote="Lumessence"] All I really remember, is that there are layers - which I want to call dimensions, but I'm not sure that's the right term, of the subconsciousness. I remember that one layer, near the bottom was something.. something that was to be avoided, a place discouraging our consciousness to travel deeper. But under that layer, is a layer where all our subconsciousness are linked together in network.

They said that traveling through that barrier was possible, but only by people with strong enough willpower, or something.. Most people who travel there without the strength can end in insanity. Schizophrenia, delusions, morale shifts, etc.. But not many people are able to get there.[/quote]

Once in a period when I was trying very hard to get lucid, I had a dream where men in black told me not to try and they said something like 'they don't want you to go there'. It was a little bit scary dream. Nowadays I am trying to be lucid again and last night I had a dream where at a point when I was about to become lucid, I started feeling like I am falling and when I hit the bed right beside my face I saw a pair of black eyes looking at me and at that moment I said 'ok I'll stop, I'll go with the flow, I won't try'. So I do believe that there are levels to subconscious and maybe there is a layer where we should not go really...


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