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If shared dreaming exists......

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Paulius
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Nov, 2012  Reply with quote

immagini wrote:
So I do believe that there are levels to subconscious and maybe there is a layer where we should not go really...


Whatever those "layers" you are talking about are, I would follow this principle:

It is your body - go damn where you want to, there's nothing stopping you :D



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Emil
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PostPosted: Wed 21 Nov, 2012  Reply with quote

Its deffinately possible, shared dreaming that is. You have to look at other places. It has allready been confirmed that our brain sends and also recives signals. Its how we meassure EEG (EEG in itself proves the possibility for shared dreaming seeing as our brains are radio transmitters and radio recivers, we just dont know very much about it.). Thats been known for very long. By wire they have been able to have 2 people at very different locations experience what the other person is experiencing, altough shielded from everything around in bunker type of rooms.

And cmon, Quantum Physics/Mechanics IS apart of us. Its within us all. It does exist in our bodies as it exist in everything else. Saying it dont just says that you really dont know what it is or understand it to a basic degree.

There is alot of things with Lucid Dreaming that is unknown to alot of lucid dreamers cause they dont even consider the options of truely what they can utilize it for. Most go out experiencing adventures, or doing things they never done or allways wanted, creative things. Or for spiritual reasons. There is another part to lucid dreaming than those mentioned, something that is rarely ever considered as a possibility one of the reasons for that is also a general lack of interest in us as a species and individuals. We think we are self aware, but really we are not.

Which is actully a good thing. It has a connection to what somone refered to as layers, and the possibility to lose your sanity is very real. Now before somone comes calling me crazy consider the fact that we dont know that much about our brains let alone possibilities with Lucid Dreaming. We here are investigating it altough alot of people is here for recreation and fun, but nonethe less we are investigating something here.

And there is a layer that do exist, where Lucid dreaming wont help. I know this can be explained by oh but you were not lucid enough, Thats valid yes. But you wont be saying that once you go to that layer, youll realize there or lose your mind. No middle or inbetween. I am not mentioning WHAT im talking about here and for good reasons. Some people really should not indulge into it(Lets face it, now im not bashing on anyone or anything negative im just stating, There is ppl on this site that dont feel well, and people who use dreams to escape reality, if your one of them, start slow and dig into yourself. Dreams cant set you free, but not trough escape from this reality),

You can be a great lucid dreamer master for all I care, that still wont help you in understanding which is crucial.

This is gonna sound crazy and *** up but yeah youll have some what of an advantage from the begining if you are a LD master with the dream part If you have a good abilitiy to truely be non biased and be able to look at personal things from a complete truely neutral standpoint 3rd person view. (This is very uncommon among the human species). Another good thing would be to read up on psycology, as much as you can and as diverse as you can, all the major theories to the smaller onces, (not talking pseudo science). Youll need some psychology understanding, aswell as understanding of manipulation and missleading.

For e.g imagine somone beating up your best friend in the world or even going to the extremes of killing your best friend. Can you still talk to the person responsible without any sort of prejudice towards that person? You need to be able to completley disregard the fact that they beat/killed your best friend, cause if you go in to understand something and you hold something like that in an aint neutral, youll never understand it cause youll be biased. And being biased will mess your head up with whats true and whats makebelief from you, Which will distort the image of that person/your best friend/ and yourself.

This will make sence to some of you, the rest it will just be a load of horeshit because you dont understand it which is the usuall response when one does not understand something, its crazy. (should not have written most of it since alot of it will trigger many of you on a psychological level without you really knowing why it triggers you, which will cause dislike for me and what I have written, you will have an answear for it tough that will firmly have a nice place in your belief system. Should it not fit initially, I guarantee you things you dont have control over will make it fit nice and perfect)

Dont belive me, Take all i said as a load of bullshit, lies, and attempt by me to manipulate and misslead you all. Question it to your last breath. (that was a sublte manipulating comment which you have no idea what it really means while your subconcious knows. which I admit to).

Disclaimer:
If this post were to cause a reacion with Moderators or so, Please do send me a private message asking me about the reasoning behind this before taking action(not my first rodeo so to speak). And I will happily explain the purpose of this post. As to anyone else, I appologize now if it does cause a reaction for you. Its a perfect example of the struggles we all have in understanding one another on this fine globe. All the answears lie not with somone telling you what to think. It lies within your mind, you just gotta open it. Oh and any missspellings done in the post, English is not my native tounge, deal with it.


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Paulius
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PostPosted: Wed 21 Nov, 2012  Reply with quote

Emil wrote:
Its deffinately possible, shared dreaming that is.

No, it isn't. It is actually the other way around... You should say: "It's almost definitely impossible".

Emil wrote:
You have to look at other places. It has allready been confirmed that our brain sends and also recives signals. Its how we meassure EEG (EEG in itself proves the possibility for shared dreaming seeing as our brains are radio transmitters and radio recivers, we just dont know very much about it.)


EEG are not signals that are "sent or received" like a radio broadcast. That argument is irrelevant. EEG has nothing to do with antennas, radios or other stuff that can be transmitted. EEG is NOT transmitted or received by our brains in any way. It is simply a series of impulses-waves that wired electronic devices can measure. Moreover, EEG cannot be decoded by us, nor the brain. It does not hold any valuable information that could be sufficient to tell what the person's dream looks like. You are totally misinformed in this field. Please read about EEG, it's purpose and uses. Our brain is NOT a radio.

Emil wrote:
Thats been known for very long. By wire they have been able to have 2 people at very different locations experience what the other person is experiencing, altough shielded from everything around in bunker type of rooms

I ask you for objective evidence on this matter. Have any?

Emil wrote:
And cmon, Quantum Physics/Mechanics IS apart of us.

Nonsense.

Emil wrote:
Its within us all. It does exist in our bodies as it exist in everything else. Saying it dont just says that you really dont know what it is or understand it to a basic degree.

Now don't think that Quantum Physics is a Force field like in Star Wars or something. Quantum Physics have nothing to do with dreams, our thoughts or the consciousness. It is a concept that explains the world as it works in the micro-sub atomic level. Human biology works in a lot bigger level, in the world of cells and neuron connections. It is not a field that Quantum Physics significantly affects. We are based on totally different principles. Don't agree? Show the evidence.

Emil wrote:
There is alot of things with Lucid Dreaming that is unknown to alot of lucid dreamers cause they dont even consider the options of truely what they can utilize it for.

Of course, Lucid dreaming is a new concept. Studies are being done. There have been much research involving the processes in the brain during a lucid dream. Nothing abnormal or supernatural has been yet discovered. Don't hold your breath either. I doubt that magic exists.

Emil wrote:
There is another part to lucid dreaming than those mentioned, something that is rarely ever considered as a possibility one of the reasons for that is also a general lack of interest in us as a species and individuals. We think we are self aware, but really we are not.

Sorry, gotta disagree with you. We are self-aware due to the conscious part of the brain. It is a really useful function that has evolved during evolution. Not all animals are self-aware. It is known that dolphins, chimpanzees, elephants and some birds are self-aware as well. There are probably other self-aware species as well that we haven't researched thoroughly yet.

Emil wrote:
Which is actully a good thing. It has a connection to what somone refered to as layers

Now that you are going scientific and start again asserting something, please define "layers" and show me the evidence for why you would think they exist.

Emil wrote:
and the possibility to lose your sanity is very real

Sanity/Insanity problems are of neurological origin. Neurologists deal with that. Most of these insanities are usually caused by chemicals, tumors in the brain, other kinds of brain damage etc. Why would you connect it to dreams/"layers"?

Emil wrote:
Now before somone comes calling me crazy consider the fact that we read: I dont know that much about our brains

Modern medicine knows A LOT about our brains. I would only agree with the statement that YOU don't know much about the brain. You know how to speculate, make wild assertions, provide anecdotes, but that is all.

Emil wrote:
And there is a layer that do exist, where Lucid dreaming wont help.

Again, please define "layer" and show me the evidence that it exists, as you are claiming right now.

The rest of your text is a big mess made up from anecdotes, wild assertions and speculations.

Emil wrote:
Dont belive me, Take all i said as a load of bullshit, lies, and attempt by me to manipulate and misslead you all.

That's exactly how I understand your post.

Emil wrote:
Disclaimer:
If this post were to cause a reacion with Moderators or so, Please do send me a private message asking me about the reasoning behind this before taking action(not my first rodeo so to speak). And I will happily explain the purpose of this post. As to anyone else, I appologize now if it does cause a reaction for you. Its a perfect example of the struggles we all have in understanding one another on this fine globe. All the answears lie not with somone telling you what to think. It lies within your mind, you just gotta open it. Oh and any missspellings done in the post, English is not my native tounge, deal with it.

Yeah, you think this disclaimer is gonna make that word salad of yours look more serious? I doubt that.



Current LD goal(s): Have a lightsaber duel with a DC.
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Lumessence
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PostPosted: Wed 21 Nov, 2012  Reply with quote

Lumessence wrote:
I don't remember all the specific details, but when I was young, someone was talking to me about dimensions, and subconsciousness. Why it was brought up, or why i was involved in this conversation, i truely do not remember. All I really remember, is that there are layers - which I want to call dimensions, but I'm not sure that's the right term, of the subconsciousness. I remember that one layer, near the bottom was something.. something that was to be avoided, a place discouraging our consciousness to travel deeper. But under that layer, is a layer where all our subconsciousness are linked together in network.

Now I'm not making claims that this is true, and i don't have any research about it, I'm just remembering something I was told when I was really little..

They said that traveling through that barrier was possible, but only by people with strong enough willpower, or something.. Most people who travel there without the strength can end in insanity. Schizophrenia, delusions, morale shifts, etc.. But not many people are able to get there.

Anyway, I read a post about this topic earlier, and it didn't come to mind at the time.

If its true that the sub is linked together in this way, then perhaps it could be possible.


Was something I had said. Sorry for the confusion.



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Paulius
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PostPosted: Wed 21 Nov, 2012  Reply with quote

Lumessence wrote:
Was something I had said. Sorry for the confusion.


Well, you did a really nice job in convincing a couple of people here of the existence of those layers :D



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Emil
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PostPosted: Thu 22 Nov, 2012  Reply with quote

First of Id like to thank you for questioning and actively participating in what you think is out of own choice. It was written to cause a reaction, You responded. very nicely and predictible. Why do you react strongly to it? Cause its not based with what you know or what you have learned or what science or mainstream tell you to belive (which im pretty sure you never really checked up yourself but gone with what they say and trust it, Get what im goin at here?). So you object to it. Just like we all object to peoples ideas and values in life that dont match our own or the majority of the population, causing disruption, distance. And generally bad attitude among us all. We all do it. Just like you have made alot of own interpreted responses to what i have actually stated. It are these things that blocks us and biases us. Which is my point. I will go trough your replies like you have mine to make it more coherent and easier to follow(Dont actully count on understanding it). I will also back this up with science where it is applicable. Some of the things have no science backing it and is to cause a reaction. Or that needs an understanding of how your mind works.

Emil wrote:
Its deffinately possible, shared dreaming that is.

Paulius wrote:

No, it isn't. It is actually the other way around... You should say: "It's almost definitely impossible".

This is really something that can be discussed forever. But it got it point across that you have troubles with people who dont belive what you belive, opposing it telling me what to say. Knew this statement would get this reaction as it allways does, and is highly applicable to other areas of all areas that you can imagine in the world. People will always oppose it. Which as i said causes distance and biases us.

Emil wrote:
You have to look at other places. It has allready been confirmed that our brain sends and also recives signals. Its how we meassure EEG (EEG in itself proves the possibility for shared dreaming seeing as our brains are radio transmitters and radio recivers, we just dont know very much about it.)


Paulius wrote:
EEG are not signals that are "sent or received" like a radio broadcast. That argument is irrelevant. EEG has nothing to do with antennas, radios or other stuff that can be transmitted. EEG is NOT transmitted or received by our brains in any way. It is simply a series of impulses-waves that wired electronic devices can measure. Moreover, EEG cannot be decoded by us, nor the brain. It does not hold any valuable information that could be sufficient to tell what the person's dream looks like. You are totally misinformed in this field. Please read about EEG, it's purpose and uses. Our brain is NOT a radio.


I cant actully find the research on this(Typical right? yeah i know, classic), but you can probably if you want to search. Its 2 people at 2 diffrent locations. Placed in secured rooms shielded from magnetic fields and all the other things interferring with our brain. They hook these 2 people up to EEG's and other measuring machines. Put 1 person in a dark room, and the other in a dark room. They are completley shielded from radiation and all other thinkable things. Since our brain is amazing at addapting to signals recived and allways trying to match it this works. (Think binural beats etc) At random intervals a lamp with one of the subjects flashes. The same is experienced by the person in the other room at the same time and they have a reaction to it. They are experiencing the same thing the person in the other room experiences without any knowledge of that lamp flashing off(They actully say they saw a flash despite the fact that they are in a pitch black room). So I disagree that our brain cannot decode such things. You are missinformed or rather uninformed about that.
Nice to see that some people can read wikipedia(sounds like im attacking your person with that statement but im just saying.)

Emil wrote:
Thats been known for very long. By wire they have been able to have 2 people at very different locations experience what the other person is experiencing, altough shielded from everything around in bunker type of rooms


Paulius wrote:

I ask you for objective evidence on this matter. Have any?


Yes and No, Its on youtube, Its about 4-5 months ago since i watched it. Lab research, Now when i think of it it might actully be in one of the episodes of that documentary with Morgan Freeman, Unsure but could be. Its either a conciousness experiment or that other. I cant actually hand you objective evidence as with links. Not trying to con you, and you really dont have to belive me, Dosent matter to me but its out there. Search for it.

Emil wrote:
And cmon, Quantum Physics/Mechanics IS apart of us.

Paulius wrote:

Nonsense.

Watch my response below and be mindblown. You actually answered it yourself but thinking the other way.

Emil wrote:
Its within us all. It does exist in our bodies as it exist in everything else. Saying it dont just says that you really dont know what it is or understand it to a basic degree.


Paulius wrote:
Now don't think that Quantum Physics is a Force field like in Star Wars or something. Quantum Physics have nothing to do with dreams, our thoughts or the consciousness. It is a concept that explains the world as it works in the micro-sub atomic level. Human biology works in a lot bigger level, in the world of cells and neuron connections. It is not a field that Quantum Physics significantly affects. We are based on totally different principles. Don't agree? Show the evidence.


This one i was actually looking forward to answear on cause its a perfect example of you adding your own percived meaning of what I actually wrote and then using it in a way that puts you above me despite that I actully never said the things your saying. And that you actually have scientificly responded to which is legit, yet still you think its nonesense and not part of. Yet you afirm that it is? One can know the words and sentences but that does not mean the person understand it.

I will start slow. 1 I actully never claimed any such thing as it to be part of our dreams(despite the fact that it is on a far fetched way if you can see the connection) and I really cant tell why you would even bring Star Wars into it, xpt the psychological reason that you have superior complexes and attempts to push down on me, making me look dumb. Its cool mate I really dont take any offence and understand the workings of the subconcious mind to scary degrees. (could this be me having superior complex? Maybe, you wont ever know tough, Now that last statement has got to be a superior complex dont it?)
2. Your understanding of what you have read about Quantum, confirms the existance of it. On a really really tiny scale, So what exactly do you think we are made of? Think twice next time and dont be so in the box. And to be honest, Councioussness cant be explained so that cant be proven that its not part of our thoughts, we THINK its not part of it. But its something humanity will never be able to prove or disprove. Just one of those things. (A perfect way to start a reaction in people)

Emil wrote:
There is alot of things with Lucid Dreaming that is unknown to alot of lucid dreamers cause they dont even consider the options of truely what they can utilize it for.


Paulius wrote:

Of course, Lucid dreaming is a new concept. Studies are being done. There have been much research involving the processes in the brain during a lucid dream. Nothing abnormal or supernatural has been yet discovered. Don't hold your breath either. I doubt that magic exists.


Again Now, trust me I understand you I really do, but in this world its extremly hard to function without telling which causes more of a reaction. You come with your made up ideas about what you read in what i wrote, your not looking at it neutrally. Open your eyes and get out of that godforsaken box man. (That statement is not gonna help either). Fair share that your are mentioning supernatural things and nothing abnormal has been discovered, or even magic. While valid in what you say, The particular thing I am talking about would not show up as abnormal or even supernatural since its none of those things, not even magic. From another perspective it could be seen as magic or supernatural but thats because theres a lack of knowledge. Stop thinking(making up connections) about things(I understand its not something you do conciouslly). This is what causes alot of problems for alot of people in our everyday interaction with eachother.

Emil wrote:
There is another part to lucid dreaming than those mentioned, something that is rarely ever considered as a possibility one of the reasons for that is also a general lack of interest in us as a species and individuals. We think we are self aware, but really we are not.


Paulius wrote:
Sorry, gotta disagree with you. We are self-aware due to the conscious part of the brain. It is a really useful function that has evolved during evolution. Not all animals are self-aware. It is known that dolphins, chimpanzees, elephants and some birds are self-aware as well. There are probably other self-aware species as well that we haven't researched thoroughly yet.

While I do respect your belief about this and understand it. And I do not wish to conflict with it since it cant be said without causing major conflict. Im just gonna leave this and say that, Think that over again, and then try to understand it. Look around you in everyday life. The way hummanity acts is not a way that self aware beings acts. All i ask is that you look. Just like you do in dreams to become lucid. Awarness shifts more than you can imagine at this present moment.


Emil wrote:
Which is actully a good thing. It has a connection to what somone refered to as layers


Paulius wrote:
Now that you are going scientific and start again asserting something, please define "layers" and show me the evidence for why you would think they exist.

They layers are of you. You are made of a bunch of layers. I cannot give you scientific evidence of this other than all the major psychological studies ever done about the psych. You experience it clearly in dreams. They come in layers dont they?. There are layers to your conciouss mind aswell as your subconciouss mind. This really should not be hard to understand. Nor hard to see if you frequently have lucid dreams. Ever had conflicting thoughts about something? Thats layers interfering am i wrong? Dont see the word layer to picturely? is that how to say it?.


Emil wrote:
and the possibility to lose your sanity is very real


Paulius wrote:
Sanity/Insanity problems are of neurological origin. Neurologists deal with that. Most of these insanities are usually caused by chemicals, tumors in the brain, other kinds of brain damage etc. Why would you connect it to dreams/"layers"?


This is a very hard subject to discuss due to all the varied information out there. While you are correct that there are problems arised due to chemical 'imbalance'(note that you never actually mentioned chemical imbalance and that I placed it in there) and tumors pressing on the wrong places and *** shit up. Thats just skimming the surface. The possibility to go mad are of many reasons, most of them psychological. Thats where the threat presents itself. Just like people experience traumatic events in life so can you experience traumatic events in dreams. Which is why one needs to be careful while doing what I have not mentioned. It is fully possible to experience psycosis, and there is noone in the world who is immune to it. Under the right circumstances everyone in the world is prone to mental madness/insanity. Thats not taking into account that the majority of the world who call themself sane is delusional and is actually insane. I can actully say that 95% or more of the worlds population are insane, But with that shear ammount of high percentage makes that normal and sane. Now a world that is insane but due to the ammount of people, made sane. Will not realize their insanity. And so look at humanity now. You dont need to be einstein to see how *** it is.

Emil wrote:
Now before somone comes calling me crazy consider the fact that we read: I dont know that much about our brains


Paulius wrote:
Modern medicine knows A LOT about our brains. I would only agree with the statement that YOU don't know much about the brain. You know how to speculate, make wild assertions, provide anecdotes, but that is all.

Again what is it with you and your superior complex?, If you gonna quote, do it properly and then add what you add in. And thank you for those kind words. I love the predictable response im getting on all of this.(Possible superior complex on me) I really do, and im really sorry for toying with you in that way.(Definate superior complex)

Modern medicine knows alot yeah, true. Yet you miss the perspective and understanding that that ALOT that modern medicine do know. On the overall scale of the brain that is a tiny fragment of the brain. Chemical imbalances and that sure. Not that hard to figure that stuff out. Its the other stuff that hasent been figured out yet that holds a far more bigger issue. The Psychology, The working of our thoughts to a more profound level than it simply being electrical impulses sent (Thats not really knowing how it works is it? Its closer to speculation that actuall knowledge of HOW and WHAT it really is. Things will start to be discovered within the comming few years. Exciting times. And I admit that theres not really any scientific backings I can give to you on this. Since that which is unknown is unknown and so not in the science, altough if you go ask a neurologist how much they know about the brain they will probably give you a reply with something similar to. "Well we know alot but there is still much that is a mystery to us." Dont be fooled that the only answears to our brain is made in the medicine. Dont be so boxed.

Emil wrote:
And there is a layer that do exist, where Lucid dreaming wont help.

Paulius wrote:

Again, please define "layer" and show me the evidence that it exists, as you are claiming right now.

I think where it clashes is that you se layer to literal, while I see it more as a concept, a term. A word will never be able to describe something such as feeling or a place or anything really. Sure I can say a square and you know what that is. But just telling you a square wont give you the information im presenting. It will tell you that its got 4 corners, equal leanght on all sides.

But it wont tell you how big it is or if the edges are sharp or not nor the material its made of. You need other words to describe such things. Thats what words do, They describe something to carry over an impression of what really is. We use words to communicate but they do not communicate feelings or sensory information etc. If I for e.g is to explain something. I use words but not in a literal sence, Its how I percive would be the best word to give the closest proximity to what im referring to.

Yes the layer see it as councioussness, Like lucid and non lucid, thats 2 distinct things that can be categorized into being layers. lucid, non lucid, awake, unconciouss etc, all those can be typed out as different layers to our councious/awareness. A concept/term whatever you wanna call it. You can be lucid be god, you can also be lucid have no control, alot of people say your not really lucid at these times, And I do agree with them at earlier stages. There is also a distinct feeling of when your lucid and thinking your lucid. I cant explain that feeling but im sure youve had it. And then theres this "layer", that is easy to goto if your really arrogant. Which can really *** your world up.

Most people are never in risk of danger cause they leave something crucial out of it. Something I will not mention here in public for people to read due to what it can do. But there are things within that one should not take lightly to play around with. Do note that when you do lucid dreaming, your having fun in an alternate reality inside your head. But you can really *** shit up in there if goin down a specific path. Now noone is in any danger from this, since there is a major lack of interest in humans to do it. Most people dont even consider the option for it. And so one is pretty safe from it and never really get to that point but wake up before. It needs to be an conciouss act. If you want to know feel free to message me and ask me specificly.

Paulius wrote:

The rest of your text is a big mess made up from anecdotes, wild assertions and speculations.
Thank you, that is a common way to percive things that goes against our firmly set beliefs.

Emil wrote:
Dont belive me, Take all i said as a load of bullshit, lies, and attempt by me to manipulate and misslead you all.


Paulius wrote:

That's exactly how I understand your post.

And mostly thats how it was written.

Emil wrote:
Disclaimer:
If this post were to cause a reacion with Moderators or so, Please do send me a private message asking me about the reasoning behind this before taking action(not my first rodeo so to speak). And I will happily explain the purpose of this post. As to anyone else, I appologize now if it does cause a reaction for you. Its a perfect example of the struggles we all have in understanding one another on this fine globe. All the answears lie not with somone telling you what to think. It lies within your mind, you just gotta open it. Oh and any missspellings done in the post, English is not my native tounge, deal with it.


Paulius wrote:

Yeah, you think this disclaimer is gonna make that word salad of yours look more serious? I doubt that.

I'll be honest, Disclaimer was more like a Check mate. To really trap somone. And that somone was you. Congratulations. A bit deciving missleading and manipulative post in general to hopefully show the meaningless action of what follows. (This is usually the part where I get banned but ive really cut it down to a more civilized friendly tone than what im really capable of).

Oh and btw, This what I have done here today. I have learned to understand it all in dreams in the way I am not mentioning. Thats where my true understanding of what I have done comes from. But it is also my curse. (No im not religious at all really but they do make perfect words to use to describe something metaphoricly, Religion is really wise and smart in that sence in trapping people) wink5

You are the good guy, altough somewhat ignorant no offence. More people should question things. Yet its the way we question things that *** shit up. This could all have been more "civilized"(Despite hummanity not really knowing what that is -.-). I hold no grudge and I hope you find this interesting. Or youll probably go the way about everyone else whos had this happen to them. Youll find me utterly repulsive and hate my guts hard.

Cause im arrogant, ignorant, got superior complex. Disasociative behaviour, Possibly schitzofrenic and a few mental disorders. Thats atleast if you ask the people ive done this to wink5 Could not agree more.

PS/EDIT
We are all connected, Its called the Global Councioussness Project, look it up.


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Paulius
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PostPosted: Thu 22 Nov, 2012  Reply with quote

OK, you want to keep the discussion going. Fine, I appreciate that. Many people would call me an idiot skeptic and it would end right there...

Emil wrote:
Why do you react strongly to it? Cause its not based with what you know or what you have learned or what science or mainstream tell you to belive (which im pretty sure you never really checked up yourself but gone with what they say and trust it, Get what im goin at here?). So you object to it. Just like we all object to peoples ideas and values in life that dont match our own or the majority of the population, causing disruption, distance.

You have a wrong opinion about me. I do not follow scientists cause I like them, their ideas or due to my beliefs. I follow scientists because their ideas are supported by objective evidence. If a theory is proven with a lot of evidence, it can then be practically considered as a fact. I base my life on these facts and it is a safe way of living, because you will never go wrong. I would not base my life on hypotheses that are unproven, because it is easy to go wild with those. It distracts you from the principles of how science works:

The Scientific Method

The scientific method is simple:

1. You have a hypothesis.
2. You objectively prove the hypothesis.
3. The hypothesis is recognized worldwide and the scientific community is happy to accept it.

If you ignore the second point, I have nothing to discuss with you, since the discussion is fruitless. Discussing speculations is a futile practice.

Emil wrote:
Some of the things have no science backing it and is to cause a reaction. Or that needs an understanding of how your mind works.

That's where the problem comes from. You try to get an idea across without supporting it. It works on open-minded people that like to fantasize etc., but on people like me that are die-hard skeptics, it just doesn't really work.

Emil wrote:
Emil wrote:
Its deffinately possible, shared dreaming that is.

Paulius wrote:

No, it isn't. It is actually the other way around... You should say: "It's almost definitely impossible".

This is really something that can be discussed forever. But it got it point across that you have troubles with people who dont belive what you belive, opposing it telling me what to say.

No, this matter can't be discussed forever. It is either true or false, can't be both. You can discuss stuff like the existence of God, how the universe came to be etc... We won't really know an answer to those, at least for now. But the universe aside, when we are talking about specifics in the brain, it is all actually very testable and researchable. The brain has been scanned thoroughly, it has been checked horizontally, diagonally and in all possible ways that you can imagine.
THERE IS NO MECHANISM THAT WOULD ALLOW SHARED DREAMING.
Period. If you'd ever find that, however, let me now.

Emil wrote:
I cant actully find the research on this(Typical right? yeah i know, classic)

Can't find research that doesn't exist. I don't think we should expect anything more than that.

Emil wrote:
Its 2 people at 2 diffrent locations. Placed in secured rooms shielded from magnetic fields and all the other things interferring with our brain. They hook these 2 people up to EEG's and other measuring machines. Put 1 person in a dark room, and the other in a dark room. They are completley shielded from radiation and all other thinkable things. Since our brain is amazing at addapting to signals recived and allways trying to match it this works. (Think binural beats etc) At random intervals a lamp with one of the subjects flashes. The same is experienced by the person in the other room at the same time and they have a reaction to it. They are experiencing the same thing the person in the other room experiences without any knowledge of that lamp flashing off(They actully say they saw a flash despite the fact that they are in a pitch black room). So I disagree that our brain cannot decode such things.

You have just told me a story, an anecdote: "I've heard once from a scientist that blah blah blah..."
It doesn't work, I have warned you.
I need the research papers, or it's just simply a story. That's it. It's simple.

Emil wrote:
Emil wrote:
And cmon, Quantum Physics/Mechanics IS apart of us.

Paulius wrote:

Nonsense.

Watch my response below and be mindblown. You actually answered it yourself but thinking the other way. [...]
I actully never claimed any such thing as it to be part of our dreams

You were talking about shared dreams. Then you introduced quantum physics. I thought that you were talking about quantum physics to somehow support your theories about shared dreams. Well, thanks for clarifying that it was not the case. I appreciate that you like quantum physics just as I, but make another thread for it, as it does not belong to this topic.

Emil wrote:
I really cant tell why you would even bring Star Wars into it

Cause that's how most scientifically illiterate people understand Quantum Physics. They start babbling about magic, force fields, time travel, consciousness, gods, whatever... It just drives me crazy. I had to test if you weren't one of those.

Emil wrote:
Your understanding of what you have read about Quantum, confirms the existance of it.

My understanding doesn't confirm anything. Many parts of the Quantum Physics field are very well proven and their existence doesn't depend on my understanding. Quantum Physics works and exists. The problem that I face often is a "slight" misinterpretation of Quantum Physics. It is just intolerable when people start stuffing Quantum Physics where it just does not simply belong.

Emil wrote:
On a really really tiny scale, So what exactly do you think we are made of?

Ok, so Quantum Physics affect the fundamental particles. We are made of fundamental particles. That's what you wanted to hear?

However, in no way should you assume from the above statements that we are controlled by Quantum Physics. We did understand how cells worked before even discovering Quantum Physics. The discovery of Quantum Physics did not change anything at all in the field of Biology. Physics and Biology follow their own paths. The laws of physics do apply to biology, but that's it. There's nothing more to it. After that, it's just the mechanics of a cell that determines how an organism works.

Emil wrote:
Councioussness cant be explained so that cant be proven that its not part of our thoughts, we THINK its not part of it.

I have supplied some examples (animals that I mentioned) that show that consciousness and self-awareness is prominent in other species as well. It is not exclusively a property of Homo Sapiens. We know a good deal about consciousness. We know that it's caused by the physical brain, the neurons and their impulses. It is a property that seems to be immaterial, but it is actually very material. We don't know everything about consciousness, many studies are still being done. However, we can say with great confidence that there is nothing abnormal with consciousness. It can be explained, it can be proven, it is a part of our brain.

Emil wrote:
But its something humanity will never be able to prove or disprove. Just one of those things. (A perfect way to start a reaction in people)

There are millions of examples why you should never say never. Whatever is unprovable now, might certainly be provable in the future. Consciousness, Quantum Physics, Lucid dreaming is provable now already. Some stuff that is considered unprovable by today's technology: dark energy, "what was before the big bang" thing, God(s) etc.

If it is unprovable, it doesn't mean it exists. Neither does it mean it doesn't exists. It's best to say "I don't damn know".

Emil wrote:
You come with your made up ideas about what you read in what i wrote, your not looking at it neutrally.

I have always thought that the scientific method is one of the most neutral ways of looking at things: Nothing exists, until proven otherwise.

By following this principle, you will dismiss wrong theories. You might accidentally dismiss right theories. Right theories will be proven in the end, as our history shows, however.

Emil wrote:
Open your eyes and get out of that godforsaken box man. (That statement is not gonna help either).

Yeah, it isn't gonna help. I'm a skeptic. Deal with it.

Emil wrote:
While I do respect your belief about this and understand it. And I do not wish to conflict with it since it cant be said without causing major conflict. Im just gonna leave this and say that, Think that over again, and then try to understand it. Look around you in everyday life. The way hummanity acts is not a way that self aware beings acts. All i ask is that you look. Just like you do in dreams to become lucid. Awarness shifts more than you can imagine at this present moment.

You are dodging now. You are going away from science and into personal territory and feelings: "look again", "think again", "try to feel it" etc.

Not gonna fall for that. You were asked to support your theories, not to try and manipulate me into them. You give too much thought for awareness and consciousness. You give them deeper meaning which is not necessary and irrational.

Emil wrote:
They layers are of you. You are made of a bunch of layers.

Sorry, but the last time I looked in the mirror, I was still a human, not an onion.

Emil wrote:
I cannot give you scientific evidence of this other than all the major psychological studies ever done about the psych.

Finally, that's what I wanted to hear.

You see, you are talking about parapsychology, not psychology. There is a difference. One concept is scientific, the other one is just a bunch of unproven nonsense.

Para-science is bullshit.
Para-scientists are experts in bullshitting.

Emil wrote:
The possibility to go mad are of many reasons, most of them psychological.

Yes, you are right. Psychological reasons are prominent causes for insanity as well. I still think, however, that on it's basics, it is simply a bunch of neuron connections that go wrong.

Just look at the brain. It is actually possible to compare sane people with insane people. All you need to do is a simple MRI and check which parts of the brain went wrong. There are certain active parts that can power off, certain inactive parts that power on... It is what we call psychology. It is in our brain. 500 years ago insane people were declared insane for ever. Now we have the ability to cure psychological diseases. Depression, for instance, is a psychological disease that is curable. It's all biology, it's all chemistry.

Life experiences can cause your brain to malfunction. Doctors can cure that.

Emil wrote:
The Psychology, The working of our thoughts to a more profound level than it simply being electrical impulses sent (Thats not really knowing how it works is it? Its closer to speculation that actuall knowledge of HOW and WHAT it really is.

Well, it is on its very basics simple impulses. It is not much of an oversimplification to say that our brain works by binary code: 1110101001110110001...

The brain is a bunch of neurons, to put it simply. Neurons either carry a charge (1) or they do not carry a charge (0). Basically, the human is a huge computer. It is in theory possible to make a mechanical brain, made out of wires. Some ambitious scientists have actually started with this project. I don't think that they will succeed yet, however. We still have some neurological and technological limitations that have to be overcome.

It might be awesome to think that we could make a robot Shakespeare, Einstein or an ideal world-leader that could take care of us in all fields. It might be scary to think that as well. But that's how we work. No layers needed, no force fields, no souls, no damn parapsychology. We are simply one of the most successful products of Evolution.

Emil wrote:
Paulius wrote:

The rest of your text is a big mess made up from anecdotes, wild assertions and speculations.
Thank you, that is a common way to percive things that goes against our firmly set beliefs.

No, it is a common way to perceive things that go against the logic and rationale of things.

By all means, be open-minded. But not so open-minded that your brain falls out.

Emil wrote:

We are all connected, Its called the Global Councioussness Project, look it up.

Ah, let's see...

Wikipedia wrote:
The Global Consciousness Project (GCP, also called the EGG Project) is a parapsychology experiment


That's all I needed.



Current LD goal(s): Have a lightsaber duel with a DC.
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AJ
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PostPosted: Thu 22 Nov, 2012  Reply with quote

See, the thing is that people who believe in religion ( I'm not trying to start a flame war here ) but I believe it is possible because I think in this case dreaming can be spiritual.. I'm not looking for any scientifically proven.
It's happened to me multiple times, I have more examples even with my sister and one time with my friend.

The dream with my friend-
I was once in a bus in my dream and I was lucid, i went into a portal to go see my friends dream and she was in this room, and I told her "We're both dreaming." She was like "Really? That's so cool.. Are you for real here?" I told her "Yes... If you remember this, when we chat on skype tell me a random word, like banana milkshake" and she was like "Alright, I will." We did fun things and then when I woke up that next day she told me "Banana milkshake" and we both went NUTS that we had the same dream.

Therefore, I do believe in shared dreaming.



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Paulius
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PostPosted: Thu 22 Nov, 2012  Reply with quote

AJ wrote:
See, the thing is that people who believe in religion ( I'm not trying to start a flame war here ) but I believe it is possible because I think in this case dreaming can be spiritual.. I'm not looking for any scientifically proven.


And this is where it all splits into two parts. Either you go the scientific way, or you go the anecdote-personal experience way. One is objective, the other is subjective.

Science doesn't care what we personally experience. Whatever dream you and your sister had, it doesn't matter. It could be explained by "filling the gaps" effect (mutual recalling), coincidence (maybe you were doing something together that day, or planning to do this beforehand etc., that could have influenced your dreams); most of us wouldn't even bother to explain it at all. As a scientist, I want measurements. In theory, shared dreaming could be proven in exactly the same way as lucid dreaming was. Why hasn't it been proven yet? Either shared dreamers are lazy, or shared dreaming just doesn't exist. I suspect the latter.



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Dragonmind
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PostPosted: Thu 29 Nov, 2012  Reply with quote

I respect your opinion, but why not theorize what else the brain can do?

"I'm right"

Okay. So what's your theory?

"It's impossible... i'm right"

Ok. Whatever, we could possibly hook up wires to people and connect their brains manually, but it would hurt.

"That sounds like fun, pain in the brain and all for a shared dream"
"But that's impossible because i'm right"
"Hooking up people together always works!"
"I'm right"

Well i'm left! That's right, I don't declare myself above others because I just like ideas.
I do believe in the small things too.

"Small, impossible, nothing can be smaller than you're human pinky, i'm right"

Well it's your* mr. Stubbern. I came to throw interesting ideas in and mr. Right suddenly makes himself the Umpire. That's right, UM. UM. Um, you seem to be wrong. You wanna know why? Why it IS possible?! Because a monkey can use a machine as an extension of it's arm!
Invisibilty is possible by wearing micro-cameras.
Filming lightning is possible.

The very fact, that we can be conscious in our dreams, the fact that we can have out of body experiences, the fact that there IS an astral plane, it means we know nothing as of yet to come. And NO, the brain is not fully explored.
Are they testing?
Yes
Well are we still experimenting?
Yes
Have we done everything like attatching a usb port to the brain that one can connect to and use someone elses brain as a computer?
No, we have not tested that yet, is it possible?
"No"
WRONG, YES IT IS! PROSTHETIC LEGS!
Our brain doesn't exactly run like windows, but it is definently possible!



Current LD goal(s): Such control, I can bridge to Astral Projection!
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Dragonmind
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PostPosted: Thu 29 Nov, 2012  Reply with quote

Now i'm sick of using this discussion to remove a nail in your head. That's it, i'm done talking to you.

So I was thinking that we could start this all over again.



Current LD goal(s): Such control, I can bridge to Astral Projection!
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CamelCase
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PostPosted: Sun 17 Feb, 2013  Reply with quote

Quote:
Our brain doesn't exactly run like windows

Well, duh. If it did, insane people would have literal BSODs, and the brain would hog up the memory, literally.
The brain is a much more basic computer - a biological Turing machine, not an x86.
A neuron is connected to one neuron, two neurons, has charge, does not carry a charge. That's it. No Windows Forms, no C#, just a bunch of cells. Modern medicine has enough understanding of the brain to know that. And if the brain had an OS, it would be Linux or a *BSD.



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Czaranis
Y HALO THAR!
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PostPosted: Sun 17 Feb, 2013  Reply with quote

Wow, I thought the LD4all community was more mature than this. This argument is almost worthy of a Youtube comments section...

*Czaranis hides before Paulius, Emil and Dragonmind flay him alive



Current LD goal(s): Practice flying without jetpack, replicate an awesome hover-tank I found in a ND
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noobdreamer
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PostPosted: Sun 17 Feb, 2013  Reply with quote

Czaranis wrote:
Wow, I thought the LD4all community was more mature than this. This argument is almost worthy of a Youtube comments section...

*Czaranis hides before Paulius, Emil and Dragonmind flay him alive

it was actually a pretty interesting read
i would love shared dreams (imagine: a "dream reunion" of the members of the forum, having the most amazing Lucid dream ever twirl ), but i guess if it is possible we will need at best decades to develop a prototype of a dream-sharer
EDIT: also i think the most difficult thing of such a machine would be "synchronising" the dreamers, since just copying the dream in someone elses mind wouldn't be enough, you would have to make everything "interact"



Current LD goal(s): improve dream recall | get back to having LDs regularly | world domination
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usernamesw
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PostPosted: Tue 19 Feb, 2013  Reply with quote

noobdreamer wrote:
Czaranis wrote:
Wow, I thought the LD4all community was more mature than this. This argument is almost worthy of a Youtube comments section...

*Czaranis hides before Paulius, Emil and Dragonmind flay him alive

it was actually a pretty interesting read
i would love shared dreams (imagine: a "dream reunion" of the members of the forum, having the most amazing Lucid dream ever twirl ), but i guess if it is possible we will need at best decades to develop a prototype of a dream-sharer
EDIT: also i think the most difficult thing of such a machine would be "synchronising" the dreamers, since just copying the dream in someone elses mind wouldn't be enough, you would have to make everything "interact"


Very interesting read, regardless of who's side you stand on.

Regarding a prototype dream-sharer device, I don't think its too far of a stretch to be possible. Assuming the brain works on signals running through neurons, Id think its theoretically possible to scan the brain and be able to interpret what the signals are saying. Maybe insert signals to create specific dreams. But yeah, it'll be years of research before anything like that is discovered.


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