They're Not Dreams
LD4all » Quest for Lucidity

#1: They're Not Dreams Author: Cornelia Xaos PostPosted: Fri 26 Aug, 2011
After reading a lot of WritersCube's DJ and seeing his responses to the numerous questions about his level of lucidity, I've come up with a theory as to why he has lucid dreams every night. First, I would like to analyze one of his metaphors:

WritersCube wrote:
It's like walking through a door. First your awake, then you pass through the door, and then your dreaming.

What does this tell us? He does not see dreaming in the same light as we do.

You all wrote:
Duh! He's got a different mindset!

Exactly! He has a different mindset. To him, dreams are not what our definition of dreams are: wrote:
dream   [dreem] noun
1. a succession of images, thoughts, or emotions passing through the mind during sleep.

To us, dreams are a series of images. Magical things that astound us and things that we have to work to gain a foothold in. To WritersCube, he spends about 16 hours in a reality in which he is limited, and then he lays down and goes to sleep to enter another reality. This is why he has such frequent LDs. He does not see dreams as we do. He's been LDing since he was 4!

And that brings me to my second argument, an addendum to the theory. His belief and definition of dreams was established primarily before any other definition gained root. We, however, have had years to build into our mind that our dreams are those magical perceptions that we have no control over. This belief we held until doubt seeped in as we discovered LDing and LD4all. For Cube his primary definition of dreams as an interactive reality, not a figment of his mind, but a living breathing evolving reality that is every bit as real as the air we breath when we're not comatose and hallucinating, and this brings me to my solution.

They're not dreams. Believe every bit of that three word sentence. If you're not comfortable moving away from the word dreams, rewrite your definition of dreams. An easy way to do that is to state what your mind currently believes a dream is and then state, preferably out loud and written down, what dreams should be: an alternate reality. This is a simple manipulation of how Psychology believes memory works. For a linky, click here.

Near the bottom it says the three steps in memory are encoding, storage, and retrieval. From my studies in Psychology, this is correct, but what the web page fails to say that the book said to me is that after retrieval the process begins again. Therefore you can re-encode a memory and alter anything, say a definition. Say the definition dreams. This is our goal.

Our goal: eliminate a false perspective of what a dream is. It is not something we can't control. It is not something we can't control. It Is Not Something We Can't Control. IT IS NOT SOMETHING WE CAN'T CONTROL! Say it with me, people. We can control dreams. They are our domain. It is a reality that we interact with. A place for personal expansion and inspiration. A natural phenomenon that takes place solely in our mind; a disconnection of our body from our consciousness, and while our body becomes paralyzed our minds are freed. Dreams are wonderful, our thoughts alive and constructing a wonderful reality, a wonderful world for our personal enjoyment.

EDIT: Part 2 Located here.

To all reading, I adopted this belief yesterday. I'll be sure to key everyone in when the successes start piling in. grin

Last edited by Cornelia Xaos on Sat 27 Aug, 2011; edited 1 time in total

#2:  Author: Samadhi PostPosted: Fri 26 Aug, 2011
But if we eliminate the perspective that "dreams aren't something we can't control" wouldn't this only help with stability issues?

At least the essence of what you wrote about WritersCube beliefs about dreams seems a tad different to me.

I know what you mean, but right now I'm just too tired to think thoroughly through this belief. Nonetheless, it could be helpful.

But then again, I'm really unexperienced in these LD things - I hope my post was at least a little helpful nonetheless.

#3:  Author: Rhewin PostPosted: Fri 26 Aug, 2011
Well, I think what Scipio is trying to point out is that we have basically trained ourselves to view dreams as things that just happen outside of our control without our consciousness backing them up. We see them as something we have to actually try to become conscious in since our experience shows that they are meant to not be in our control.

However, by looking at them from the mindset of them being just another plane of conscious existence, it makes no sense why we wouldn't be able to take control of.

I will admit I am breaking my number one pet peeve here with wording. When I say control, I mean consciousness. It's like taking control of a car or a boat. This kind of control stems from awareness which is what lucidity actually means. The control you are thinking of is more of your ability to do things in the dream world. A little bit different, and that's another topic all together XD.

#4:  Author: 2ndLive PostPosted: Fri 26 Aug, 2011
While children in most cultures are taught to ignore their dreams, the Senoi, like the aborigines of Australia, believe dreams are a landscape one must learn and navigate to truly understand the nature of life. During an average lifespan we spend 8 years of our life dreaming. Imagine living 8 years in a foreign country and never picking up the customs, language, or even the layout of the land; having only theories and little experience.

#5:  Author: Cornelia Xaos PostPosted: Fri 26 Aug, 2011
Samahdi, other than Cube, the theory is untested. And as for what I said about control, I was merely using it as an example. Control is only one aspect of our dreams that we perceive differetly than WritersCube. After I laid down to sleep last night I realized that I should have used a different word or elaborated more.

Rhewin, exactly! That's precisely why I believe some frequent LDers are so and most aspiring LDers have such difficulty (myself included).

2ndLive, thanks for the supportive evidence. Interesting read.

#6:  Author: Samadhi PostPosted: Fri 26 Aug, 2011
Scipio Xaos wrote:
After I laid down to sleep last night I realized that I should have used a different word or elaborated more.

Exactly that's what I meant. smile But there's always time for refining this theory, I'm almost sure it will be quite helpful.

EDIT: After re-reading this thread it seems to me that my initial post sounded like I thought that this wasn't a good approach. I definitely think it is one, I just wanted to point out the (imo) not so good wording.

EDIT2: I hope I'm not babbling useless stuff here, as I said I didn't have any LDs yet. If I should stay out of this discussion and wait until I'm more experienced, just tell me. grin

#7:  Author: avalinah PostPosted: Fri 26 Aug, 2011
i've always viewed dreams as another reality. well, not always, but since my childhood definitely. the years when i had my best DR were the years when i "moved to" the dreamworld, because at that time it was better than the real one. however, i have never had a LD before i found out about them, which was last year.

so your theory has a hole in it. i'm not saying it's not true, but i'm saying it's still missing some key difference between only just thinking it's another reality (which i did believe in when i was small) and actually becoming lucid..

i think what it is is that people are different. different kinds and levels of awareness and even the way the brain's working. there are just too many variables, so it's hard to say that "this" is exactly what makes one lucid and can make everyone lucid.

#8:  Author: Cornelia Xaos PostPosted: Sat 27 Aug, 2011
Part 1 Located here.

I've come to another conclusion as to how to use this information in the formation of a "technique" if you will as it is very much like LL. First off:

Wyvern wrote:
The real "Lucid Living" shift came when it occurred to me that anything could be a dream sign. The couch I was sitting on. It felt real, but it also felt real in a dream. The ground I was standing on, the air I was breathing, the emotions I was very much aware of. I could be dreaming. And then suddenly, it just all felt like a dream. There's a certain state of mind that comes with questioning. This sense of lucidity and awareness. It never turned off after that. Life still feels like a dream. I'm lucid right now.

What is unique about Wyvern's mindset and the mindset that WritersCube carries? They're certainty and levels of awareness are superb compared to the average dreamer. So, what I propose, is in place of a LL critical question (although such a question will assist in this process) is an attempt to fixate into our lives a permanent state of awareness.

Complete Awareness (I've just discovered that it's also referred to as All Day Awareness (ADA) although ADA seems to focus more intently upon dreaming), aside from the benefits such a level of awareness would naturally incur upon our waking lives, would easily yield DILDs every time you sleep. Wyv said he's unable to normal dream - although I believe that at that point a normal dream is a lucid one - because of his level of awareness and his feeling that 'all is like a dream.'

Thoughts like those tend to bring upon a person immense feelings of awareness. A similar process I've discovered is visualizing oneself from third person with dramatically stronger effects the further away one visualizes oneself. Anything, really, that can induce a similar feeling as to be acutely aware of your surroundings and hence you waking/dreaming state will be infinitely profitable to a dreamer's LD experience and frequency.

In closing, it seems to me that awareness being central, dreamers who wish for persistent and constant Lucid Dreaming to become they're NDs should pay less attention to shortcut techniques that only provide lapses into the world of dreams and more attention to what can easily produce results immediately as they did for Wyvern once he realized that his environment at any time could be a dream.

#9:  Author: gnargnar PostPosted: Sat 27 Aug, 2011
Great article, I'm trying it out atm (3rd person). I still haven't tried to rewrite my definition of what a dream is but I'm gonna try it tonight. It would be nice if you gave examples of yourself and shown the journey that you took to develop this mindset. Also I'm wondering what your definition of a dream is before getting this mindset and right now (anyone should feel free to answer that )

#10:  Author: Laretta PostPosted: Sat 27 Aug, 2011
I can't separate dream objects from RL objects because they feel and look exactly the same. If I would ask everything's real or not my friends could think that I've gone crazy...

#11:  Author: Cornelia Xaos PostPosted: Sat 27 Aug, 2011
GnarGnar wrote:
It would be nice if you gave examples of yourself and shown the journey that you took to develop this mindset. Also I'm wondering what your definition of a dream is before getting this mindset and right now (anyone should feel free to answer that )

Thanks for the compliment Gnar, and as for examples of the journey, I'm in the middle of it now. But I can tell you that I've done all I said (although I haven't done exactly as I said for rewriting my definition of dreams, instead I've been reinforcing my belief that I'm not powerless in my dreams), and that I've begun considering the world the way Wyvern does, that it all could be a dream. So far, I'm not constantly questioning my state, although I most certainly am questioning it a lot more than I used to. The frequency of said questions has been increasing steadily.

Laretta wrote:
I can't separate dream objects from RL objects because they feel and look exactly the same.

Exactly, that's why I've adopted Wvyern's consistent consideration of perceiving the world as it could be a dream.

Laretta wrote:
If I would ask everything's real or not my friends could think that I've gone crazy...

You don't have to ask it out loud. Silent consideration to oneself is almost certainly enough. I've noticed that it's infinitely easy to perceive a dream as a dream so long as one asks themselves they are dreaming. The opposite is true if one assumes it is not. Therefore, by questioning all the time, you are infinitely more likely to realize you are dreaming, even by assuming that all is a dream. Remember: Optimism is key!!!

#12: Shifting Beliefs Author: Mr Ribeiro PostPosted: Fri 17 Nov, 2017
Thanks Cornelia

Nice Post

In a book called " Friendship with God " NDW there's a wonderful line

Basically waking life, physical reality, whatever you may want to this shared reality in which i am liking this post IS is " a dream of a lifetime " as opposed to " a dream of a nighttime " or " a nap time " either way the point is waking up, wouldn't you say?

#13:  Author: EarthlyInspired PostPosted: Tue 12 Dec, 2017
Personally, I've noticed that it's not so much about "questioning" your reality, as in repeatedly stopping and saying out loud or in your head "is this a dream?" Or "this could be a dream"; it's really about the perception of it. It's so easy to slip into routine and just ask the question and not fully grasp it. But to really truly grasp that idea takes a lot more effort, and produces a lot more results. Personally, I've started my practice by sitting and meditating on the idea for a while; looking out at what's in front of me and envisioning myself sitting in a dream. It was definitely helpful to have had lucid dreams in the past to enable me to understand what it feels like to be in a dream. But I think the true goal is to recreate THAT feeling, that sense of limitlessness, that altered perspective of your reality.

I recently read a post by Robert Waggoner about this topic somewhere here on LD4ALL, and have since attempted to shape my life around it. Prior to this, I was trying all the usual methods for lucid dreaming, like reality checks, herbs, intentions, etc etc with some minor results: a lucid dream a week if I was lucky. However, after only a few days of (FULLY) integrating the full mindset into my everyday life, my LD count skyrocketed. I had 3 lucid dreams in the second night, and 4 more in the next 5 days.

What I did notice was two things:
1) reality checks are actually more important than you think. Prior to this experiment all my lucid dreams transpired without the test of a reality check, and I had begun to believe that it doesn't really work that way. However, with awareness entering your dreams through this current method, it is hugely important. I've had so many lucid dreams now where I've been walking along thinking "hey this could be a dream--wait! Is it?! Nahhh can't be. Let's check anyway... holy sh**!!! YAYY!!!"

2) meditation/lucid living/extended awareness. Um, yeah. So important. I know you all probably already know that but I feel it necessary to reiterate. Half of these new lucid dreams have lasted me less than ten minutes because my level of concentration is such that my train of though eventually drifts and I forget I'm lucid. I liken it to my meditation sessions: how long can I focus on my breathing? 15 breaths? Well that's probably how long my next lucid dream will be. If your mind is too hyperactive, it'll be like a dog to a squirrel when you're in your lucid dreams. Completely distracted.

Overall though. I have to say I truly believe the method this thread is all about is super effective. And yes, as previously mentioned at the start of this thread, you ARE changing what you believe dreams to be. You are going to bed now more like you're strapping in for an adventure. Bedtime is NOT the end of your day anymore. Just be warned though, it's a big commitment. You are committing to allowing your perceptions to change in your everyday life. It's not really something one can just "try". To me it's an investment who's results will multiply the longer it's incorporated. I imagine someone who holds this mindset for even a year will have become a master the art of oneirology.

#14:  Author: johnlaican PostPosted: Sat 23 Dec, 2017
Neville Goddard spoke of this. The secret is to be able to shut off the "real" world and focus on your "inner" world. The body automatically shuts off the "real" world every day, if only from exhaustion, we call that "sleep". The problem is that we are so addicted to external stimulation. We don't have much of an inner life to speak of, we don't focus on it, we treat it as a distraction. We might talk to ourselves, but we can barely even exercise control over our own inner "imaginary" dialogue. So when we sleep, we are out of our element.

From "Out of This World":

"Do not visualize yourself at a distance in point of space and at a distance in point of time being congratulated on your good fortune. Instead, make elsewhere here, and the future now. The future event is a reality now in a dimensionally larger world; and, oddly enough, now in a dimensionally larger world, is equivalent to here in the ordinary three-dimensional space of everyday life.

The difference between feeling yourself in action, here and now, and visualizing yourself in action, as though you were on a motion-picture screen, is the difference between success and failure.

The difference will be appreciated if you will now visualize yourself climbing a ladder. Then with eyelids closed imagine that a ladder is right in front of you and feel you are actually climbing it.

Desire, physical immobility bordering on sleep, and imaginary action in which self feelingly predominates, here and now, are not only important factors in altering the future, but they are essential conditions in consciously projecting the spiritual self. If, when the physical body is immobilized we become possessed of the idea to do some thing – and imagine that we are doing it here and now and keep the imaginary action feelingly going right up until sleep ensues – we are likely to awaken out of the physical body to find ourselves in a dimensionally larger world with a dimensionally larger focus and actually doing what we desired and imagined we were doing in the flesh."

Some things might be helpful to develop that inner focus. Starting at a young age probably helps a lot but... One thing I've heard a lot of good things about, yet haven't had much personal experience with, is image streaming. The idea is to try to describe in as much detail as possible your inner "imaginary" sensations. Even if they are fleeting, vague, you keep describing them in as much detail as you can. They claim this helps unite the two brain hemispheres but maybe it is just a matter of helping you focus internaly. People have also claimed doing consistent dual n-Back training brought their dreams to life.

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