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A new Technique VWILD

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Jayster
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PostPosted: Wed 19 Dec, 2007  Reply with quote

I'v only had 3 LD using this device in the last 2 weeks. But I have been exceptionaly tired the last few days because of home life and work, and only getting about 5 hours sleep each night (which probably doesn't help). Hopefully, things will quiet down a bit after Chrimbo.

Well, I made a new contact through a friend of a friend type thing, who actually programs the chips in devices such as watches and mobile phones. I came up with vibration idea about 6 months ago, but couldnt find anything to that would do the job.
As soon as I met this guy, I explained to him what I was after and he explained that to have a PCB designed and made would cost between £5000 and £7000. I cant remember the exact price for the patent but he told me that if you wanted it worldwide it was going to be around the £10000 mark and then you have to pay a yearly fee to keep the patent on your device. Something like £5000 per year.

As, i say I dont know him too well, and perhaps he's a bit of a cowboy and doesnt know his stuff as well as he likes to think he does.

Im more of an ideas man than a builder, so I wouldnt have a clue on how to make such a device. But because everybody is unique and different, the time invervals need to be able to be set differently. I originally said 42 minutes, because thats what works best for me. But someone else may find that 55 minutes is best for them. If you go by stephen laberge's notes concerning at what point in our sleep cycle we have REM periods and there longevity, you will find that 42 minutes, should hit more REM periods than by using any other time interval. However, Not everyone is the same, therefore I recommend that if you think you can make such a device, be sure that the interval time can be altered. It is also imperative that it vibrates for roughly 5 sec and the RESETS itself. You are not going to want to wake up from your LD to reset the alarm.

Part of my £20,000 budget also accounted for publicity and the production of 100 of the devices for more testing.

Although, there are many members to this forum and it feels that there are thousands of people out there who practice LD. Im sure that is true. We are a minority, a big one yes, but still a minority. I have lots of friends and family, and have striked up conversations of LD. Not, one persons I have talked to about it has ever heard of it. There would have to be one hell of a publicity campagne to make people more aware of LD and what it can do. Before you come anywhere near to making your money back from making and patenting the device.
Unless you were to put a hefty price tag onto it, which I would be greatly against. Because this would alienate those who have never heard of it. You could publicise yourself to death, but if you were to put a price of even £50, those who have never heard of LD or sceptics wouldn't go near it. So straight away you've lost money and risk making your money back.
However, of course if you make it affordable, you still run the risk of not selling enough and not making your money back.

I was going to get it made and try to sell it to the masses, of course i would had to have done more testing, but upon much deliberation and researching into how other businesses work, I decided that the risk was too high. I just don't think that the masses are quite ready yet for the formidable world of Lucid Dreaming.

So I decided to give and share this idea freely to those that will benefit (hopefull greatly) and that is of course you lot.

If anyone hear does manage to make such a device and use it too great affect, it would be fantastic if you could share it with us. My hope is that such a vibrating device would increase the possibility of LD in every one of us.

I promise I will keep up to date with my postings on this, and I after the holidays, concentrate more on my LD and my tech. I'm very hopeful that i will have great success with it.


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rarebreed
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PostPosted: Wed 19 Dec, 2007  Reply with quote

ok, I see where you are coming from. It would be a lot of money to mass-produce it and wow, I didn't know patents were so much. I think Ill try this christmas break to develop a workable design for such a watch and will be sure to post a how-to, on an individual scale it shouldnt be too hard to do/be cheap. Ill see what happens

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Chuckiferd
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PostPosted: Wed 19 Dec, 2007  Reply with quote

I think we have the opportunity to invent something here!

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Jayster
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PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec, 2007  Reply with quote

I have decided to change the name of this tech to

VIBILD - Vibrate Induced Lucid Dream

I realise the acronym is longer than most, but it seems to fit the tech pretty well.


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rarebreed
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PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec, 2007  Reply with quote

ok, well, Ive begun designing the LD-specific watch. Im hoping to get some picaxe-08M chips for Christmas. I went ahead and wrote a little program using their editor and ran some simulations. Right now it will have two buttons (one to change between modes and the other to select times) and of course a vibrating motor attached to the chip, I might add an LED for signaling purposes but I think itd be cool to keep it down to just the motor. Right now you can change the wait between signals through 12 steps of an extra 10minutes each step, so between 10min and 2hrs. You can also change how long the signal will be on for through 12 steps of 5sec each (5sec to 1min). Let me know what you guys think/ if any of the timings and functions should be different.

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Jayster
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PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec, 2007  Reply with quote

Rarebreed, that sounds absolutely awesome, I really think this will work better than the vibrating watch I bought. I think its a great idea to keep it simple. The less buttons and modes will just make it cheaper and easier. I think the led is a good idea, just to let you know what mode your in by flashing a certain number of times, to represent time interval set.

Dont forget that its important that after the vibration goes off and then ends, that the device resets itself automatically to go off again in the next time interval. So if for example the interval is set for 40 mins. And the vibration is set for 5 sec. Then once the device is started, it will vibrate for 5 sec every 40 mins, without having to press a button. It will just carry on doing this until you press a button to stop it.

I think you need a start / stop button. and once stopped, this will reset the device. So when you switch it back on, the time intervals will need to be reset.

What do you think?

The other important factor is that it need to be small. Remember it need to be worn through out the day, so that you get into the habit of performing a reality check every time the alarm goes off, so that your dream self does it automatically when it vibrates in the night. So it must not be cumbersome. It needs to be small, so it can be worn at all times and still be comfortable.

I became lucid twice last night, but because the alarm vibrates for 20 seconds actually woke me up. I was only lucid for about 15 seconds.

Make sure that there is no beeping alarm during the vibration, sorry if I'm stating the obvious to you, but we dont want sound, just vibration.

Thanks for giving this idea a shot though, I just really dont have the expertise or knowledge to build this, but I really do think with a shorter vibration time, its quite possible that this device will guarantee LD for anyone.

Ooooohh how exciting is this!!

Iv had this idea in me for over two years. To know that its so close to coming into being is very exciting.


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rarebreed
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PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec, 2007  Reply with quote

Thanks for the input and enthusiasm! A few comments and questions and then I gotta get back to hw, lol. 1. idk about the LED, just another(albeit very cheap) thing to implement. I have the code made so it will vibrate the motor to tell you what mode you are in and such, but if you like the LED idea it would be very easy to implement so that depending on the mode you are in the LED is a diff color( I have 2 open outputs on the chip still left over). 2. Of course it needs to reset, lol, I have it setup to do so already 3. Dont worry about size, the chip and motor are very tiny and the chip should be able to be run off of a button cell 4. Instead of a stop/start button I was going to set it up so there was a very light switch that made it so that the chip was only running/had power when the watch was on and it the switch was pressed against your wrist(this would also save power and allow people to easily disable it for tests just by taking it off). 5. Do you really think the time intervals should be reset every time it is turned off? what if the user finds and interval they like and then forget it? Right now I have it so your values are permanently saved in eeprom on board the chip so it is remembered even when no power is applied(still can be changed whenever you want though, of course). 6. do you think 5sec is a short enough alert? I wasnt sure how short and long to make the pauses possible for.

Thanks, Im really enjoying working on this!.....though we will have to wait till after christmas for me to have all the parts to begin making a prototype

EDIT: I actually really liked the idea of an LED indicator, so I went ahead and implemented it in the code and schematics Ive got. So now, along with the motor vibrating shortly to say u have entered a mode, the LEDs work as follows: LED1 is lit when in the change alertwait mode and LED2 is lit when in alertlength mode; no LED is lit during the normal alert cycle/not in a mode. This can turn out espescially cool if you use bicolor LEDs, I have some tricolor LEDs laying around and Ill probably just use 2 of their colors for this


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Jayster
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PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec, 2007  Reply with quote

Enthusiastic, I'm jumping through hoops at the moment.
I love your idea about the on/off switch.
Yes, i think you're right, you dont need it to reset the time intervals when off and an led light that changes colour to represent which mode it is in...genius idea.
I think you need only a few different settings for the vibration length, to swap between. It would be awful if 5 sec was still too long for some people and wake them up.
Perhaps you should have the ability to swap between 2, 5 and 7 second. So it can be adjusted to how deep the sleeper. Light, medium or heavy.

Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant.

I'm not sure that i mentioned it but.. BRILLIANT!


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rarebreed
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PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec, 2007  Reply with quote

Lol, thanks, in case you havent noticed I kinda had some plans for a similar watch before, but now you are really motivating me to do it, lol. Ok, well, if you think it only needs to be that short......hm, Im personally thinking I should change the alerttime to intervals of 1sec.....Im also thinking instead of settings of 12 I should do 13, just as a kinda salute to the mayan calendar since that seems to be a big thing on here.
Right now Im thinking: alerttime: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13 seconds and alertpause: 10,20,30,40,50,60,70,80,90,100,110,120,130 minutes. Hm, maybe it is a bit long(having 13 intervals), but Id like it to be as customizable as possible, and once the user finds the right combination for them they shouldnt be messing around with the settings anymore anyways.

Hm, light sleeper, eh? I might be able to stick something in there(probably electronic hardware wise, software wise would be more difficult to do), but I might be able to make it possible to adjust how hard the vibration is.... I know a simple way to do it but Im not sure of the quality of it.... I think Ill stick with this normal way first and then see if I can make the vibration adjustable.

and, lol, glad you are thrilled, this is quite a fun project for me, I just now scavenged up some parts for it from old projects and stuff ( Ive got a battery case, watch straps from an old watch, and red&black buttons) I hope I get the chips and vibrating motor for christmas....otherwise Ill buy them myself(they are cheap anyways), btw do you have aim or email or something we can converse more quickly/directly? Im not sure whether others want us to be filling up this thread with our own little endeavor. any opinions?


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kTFox has successfully completed an LD4all Quest!
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PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec, 2007  Reply with quote

I have given this a good skim and I have to say that I am interested. I want to keep it simple and just buy the vibraLITE 3 sometime in January when I have enough money. $50 for a watch isn't that bad (looked on amazon).

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kTFox has successfully completed an LD4all Quest!
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PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec, 2007  Reply with quote

I have given this a good skim and I have to say that I am interested. I want to keep it simple and just buy the vibraLITE 3 sometime in January when I have enough money. $50 for a watch isn't that bad (looked on amazon).

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rarebreed
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PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec, 2007  Reply with quote

Yes, kt4all, you are definitely right that $50 isnt bad for a watch, and if you want to keep it simple that would be the way to go, so good luck with it if you decide to buy one ^^ Im still gonna continue to pursue this project though, for those who want something more customizable (and/or want to make things a lil harder on themselves), I also of course hope to make it cheaper....not including labor. Oh, and just a little update on the idea of a homemade one, Ive actually decided against a on/off switch activated by just wearing it because it would be hard to implement perfectly so that the button didnt stop being pressed when you moved around and you didnt accidentally press it when it is off in your pocket or backpack or w/e. so I think Ill just use a normal on/off switch.

It is definitely true though that if you want something quick, easy, and not too badly priced the vibralite3 would be the best way to go.

edit: kt4all, or a mod, is there anyway to get rid of the multiple posts?


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Jayster
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PostPosted: Fri 21 Dec, 2007  Reply with quote

The vibralite is a nice way to have a go, but as I keep saying, I a still experimenting with it. I am quite a deep sleeper and so may work for me better than others. the vibration is quite strong and goes on for 20 sec, which is a long time. If you are a light sleeper, you may become lucid, but the the vibration would eventually wake you up. If the vibration only goes for around 5 sec, then there is a much less chance of you being woken and a higher chance of you becomming lucid.

Im just warning you kT of the down sides of the vibralite, as i wouldn't want it too not work for you, because of the long vibration, and waste your money.
What rarebreed is going to do is design a much better device similar to the vibralite, but which is specifically aimed toward LD, instead of the partial hearing.

If you read through the post, you will see that yes, I have been successful using this tech, but I on occation it has also woken me up, just as I become lucid.

Just want to make sure that everyone knows the facts. I am hoping that, as I'm sur rarebreed is also, that this new device which is being designed, will work much better than the vibralite, and may guarantee LD for everyone.


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Jayster
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PostPosted: Fri 21 Dec, 2007  Reply with quote

Rarebreed, I have sent you a PM, so check your PM inbox. I think that maybe this is the best way we should communicate concerning the designing of the VIBILD device, so that we don't fill this thread with babble.

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Blitzen
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PostPosted: Sat 22 Dec, 2007  Reply with quote

So do you guys plan on copyrighting this 'LD Watch'? What are your plans after creating this device? Obviously I don't think you can sell things that aren't copyrighted by yourself, maybe you can. I am thinking at the moment that rarebreed is going to keep it for himself for the most part, possibly sharing the idea of how to make it on a tutorial. I doubt you guys will get into selling it, but I might be wrong. ^_^

As for the VibraLite, I plan on attaching it to my shin area of my leg. During the day and night, so hopefully it will only impact my leg area and not my arm + chest area. Legs are of course down on their own, not near any other body parts, hopefully not waking me up.


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