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Lakota Indians Withdraw Treaties Signed With U.S. 150 Years

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DayLight
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PostPosted: Fri 21 Dec, 2007  Reply with quote

Chuckiferd wrote:
Bruno wrote:
Well, you don't lose them: you return them to their rightful owners. wink5


Rightful owners? We conquered them, they simply did it peacefully because they knew they were outnumbered. Why we gave them their land to settle on no-one knows. Jeez I guess the Italians want all of Europe back now too.


The Nazi's conquered the Jews. Does that make it okay?
What the European settlers did to Native Americans was horrible. They were slaughtered, lynched, enslaved, and robbed of their homes. If China came over and destroyed your home and killed your family and took over your country, would that be okay?

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I can not find anything on this story on any other news station so until I do I say it all faked. I have never even heard of Fox news

lach2 How do you propose we take you seriously now?

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The five states aren't theirs to take back anymore though. The majority of the people in these states are not Indians, and so they would be as bad as the original Americans...without the genocide.


If someone took something from you how would you justify it not being your to take back anymore???

and oh yeah that pesky genocide...


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Bruno
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PostPosted: Fri 21 Dec, 2007  Reply with quote

Dan wrote:
If China came over and destroyed your home and killed your family and took over your country, would that be okay?

Do you want to know what I think or how it would be? Because, according to the unfortunate logic of humankind, it would be okay, no matter how much I personally disagree with that.

The thing with the Lakota here is not supposed to come down to this level of discussion, that of Ethics, because you can find a discourse in Ethics do defend any viewpoint: it's politics, right? Well, politics have it that treaties were signed, and that treaties are the supreme law to each and every country. And what the treaties say is this: it is legit for the Lakota to claim their independence. And so be it: there's nothing to be done about it.


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Amused Himself to Death
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PostPosted: Fri 21 Dec, 2007  Reply with quote

Bruno wrote:
Then, as far as republican thought goes, you've done enough — in fact, I'm now wondering why the hell you guys give them money!
Ahhh, I really don't know. I suppose, in school, we've always been taught how we screwed them over, so everybody feels bad about it, and out of pity, we give them alms. Heh, I don't really agree with it. It would probably be better spent on education, or working off the national debt a little bit, or a tax cut, or hell, spending more on mental institutions so we don't have a bunch of crazy people walking around near my house... I would blame the liberal political climate up here in Canada, if any one thing can be blamed.

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If someone took something from you how would you justify it not being your to take back anymore???
Maybe those lands were once of the Indian, but they aren't anymore. Now, what the Americans did to them was wrong. But if the Indians were to impose their views over others, ie., the current Americans living there, they would be as bad as the Americans, without the genocide.

But it is worth asking: If the Indians had a majority, and had the firepower to overwhelm the Americans as the Americans once did to the Indians, would they not use that firepower? I would argue yes, yes they would. Indian culture back then was somewhat savage, and wars were common between the tribes, it wasn't seen as something awful as it now is, it was seen as a legitimate way to resolve conflicts. Not only this, but if one side was seen as weaker, these Indians would attack to reap the benefits from it.


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PostPosted: Sat 22 Dec, 2007  Reply with quote

RxQueen wrote:
its about time the indians get their land back doncha think?


All I can say is....

seconded


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Amused Himself to Death
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PostPosted: Sat 22 Dec, 2007  Reply with quote

But what is their definition of land? If we gave all their land back, the five states area that they once frequented, we (or, they, but this applies to any area which has Indians in them, and no, not Cleveland) would have nowhere to live. As I said earlier, all natives claim all lands as their own. What about us? Don't we matter? Where do we set up shop, where do we live?

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DayLight
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PostPosted: Sat 22 Dec, 2007  Reply with quote

I'm sure you could still live there. I'm sure white people will remain in Lakota country. They just won't be in America anymore.

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Chuckiferd
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PostPosted: Sat 22 Dec, 2007  Reply with quote

Bruno wrote:
Dan wrote:
If China came over and destroyed your home and killed your family and took over your country, would that be okay?

Do you want to know what I think or how it would be? Because, according to the unfortunate logic of humankind, it would be okay, no matter how much I personally disagree with that.


Thats what I am talking about, besides don't act as if the Lakota were peaceful, what the Lakota did was terribal. It was them who atempted genocide. They slaughtered Americans left and right, I am talking about Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse. Yes the people who took revenge were wrong, but it was the Lakota who struck first.

Yeah if this was true, 4 states were about to revolt against the US this would be everywhere. It isn't. I have looked on the Lakota websites, there is absolutly nothing. This is not happening, it is all fake. However we can keep discussing the morality behind it.

Just think for a moment and name one country or even Native American Territory that was orgionaly created peacefully


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Chuckiferd
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PostPosted: Sat 22 Dec, 2007  Reply with quote

Amused Himself to Death wrote:
Well, we gave them a lot of land, and they receive around 20 billion per year in aid from the government. They govern themselves, with aboriginal self-government, and apparently, they aren't doing too well. Like, there is a lot of drunk people, people that are too lazy to do anything, since they get so much money from the government. .


Very very true, those of you whom this thead actually concerns you take a drive on a nearby Native American reservation. Is that someplace you want to live?


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G. atlanticus
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PostPosted: Sat 22 Dec, 2007  Reply with quote

Chuckiferd wrote:

Just think for a moment and name one country or even Native American Territory that was orgionaly created peacefully


Define "peacefully." What would you consider India? Or perhaps the first Native Americans to cross the land bridge into America who found no resistance? What about the Iroquois Confederacy, which was founded by a spiritual leader?



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Bruno
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PostPosted: Sat 22 Dec, 2007  Reply with quote

Chuck, I'm going to ignore your replies to this post until they show substance. Right now, I have seen the wildest claims coming from you, most of which borderline the trollish, and what I feel is you're trying to transform this discussion into a passionate ethical dispute.

Since I can't honestly take your arguments seriously when your premises are stuff like "the Lakota people were terrible genocidal freaks who attacked the innocent, peaceful Brit immigrants," and since I'm also more interested in being realistic and analysing what's rightful and what's going to happen from a political point of view, basing myself on treaties and the interests of the international community, I'm not going to pay attention to any more of your posts unless you manage to bring some substance into the debate.

<edit>And by the way:

Sitting Bull's tribe declares independence

Lakota withdraw from treaties, declare independence from US

Lakota Indians announce secession from United States

Descendants of Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse break away from US

Lakota Indians work to secede from US

Lakota Indians Secede from the US

Lakota activists declare secession from US

Lakota Sioux Declare Sovereignty

Not to mention FOX News, which is still one of the two largest journalistic networks of your country.</edit>




Last edited by Bruno on Sat 22 Dec, 2007; edited 1 time in total
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RxQueen
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PostPosted: Sat 22 Dec, 2007  Reply with quote

Chuckiferd wrote:
Very very true, those of you whom this thead actually concerns you take a drive on a nearby Native American reservation. Is that someplace you want to live?


i live on a reserve, my parents own a four hundred thousand dollar house lake front property with all the bells and whistles.
there is a community center, aboriginal police services, womens shelter (for all of the area, not strickly for native women) a day care center, a high school, three convenience stores and soon to be a retirement home.
very comfortable tight knit family-oriented community. when i come home, it feels like "home" should feel like.

...i assume you only know of the stereotypical indian reservations?


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Amused Himself to Death
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PostPosted: Sun 23 Dec, 2007  Reply with quote

hahaha, I was going to stir the crap with an argument I don't really agree with, but have thought better of it. It was a bit of a fallacious argument, and it involved Ayn Randian-type-thought. It was a fun argument, mainly because I like arguing, but it's a bit of a serious issue, so it won't see the light of day siiw

Now, I wouldn't be surprised that conditions would be that good for you guys, RxQueen. The system we have up in Canada is pretty bad, with many flaws. If I was guaranteed a set amount of income for doing nothing but being an Indian, I may be pretty lazy and messed up as well. For instance, my brothers best friend worked on a cruise ship for three years, and because he didn't have to pay for lodgings, as the cruise lines payed for that, he accumulated a tidy nest egg. But since then, he has literally done nothing, and spends all day, every day, watching youtube videos. hahaha, he used to be a great guy, but he has decomposed into a mentally lazy person. Still a good guy, but a lazy one, who is somewhat unchallenging, and somewhat depressing to be around if you knew the man before this one.


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Bruno
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PostPosted: Sun 23 Dec, 2007  Reply with quote

Jon is right — and this is why I don't agree with Canada giving away money to the reserves: one thing is assuring people's liberties by granting them rights and legal protection, another is to bribe them into the capitalist system with infinite budget and expect of them any will to work... This is bad in that it makes those people useless from the capitalist point of view and still helps killing the tribal cultures. If you are to spend money with an antropologic reserve, then don't just spend it by giving in cash to the nearest local leader. Invest indirectly.

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RxQueen
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PostPosted: Sun 23 Dec, 2007  Reply with quote

Amused Himself to Death wrote:

Now, I wouldn't be surprised that conditions would be that good for you guys, RxQueen. The system we have up in Canada is pretty bad, with many flaws.


i live in northern ontario.

i agree with the $ thing your getting at also. i know plenty of people, who all happen to be non-natives who work jobs like call centers or seasonal resorts for about 6 months a year, and for the other six months either do nothing at all, or collect unemployment cheques from the government. a lot of them happen to be the type of people to drink away all their money as well.


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RxQueen
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PostPosted: Sun 23 Dec, 2007  Reply with quote

Bruno wrote:
Jon is right — and this is why I don't agree with Canada giving away money to the reserves: one thing is assuring people's liberties by granting them rights and legal protection, another is to bribe them into the capitalist system with infinite budget and expect of them any will to work... This is bad in that it makes those people useless from the capitalist point of view and still helps killing the tribal cultures. If you are to spend money with an antropologic reserve, then don't just spend it by giving in cash to the nearest local leader. Invest indirectly.


to me, im not really sure if the government didnt expect this to happen...


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