marijuana

We probably shouldn’t try and get mad at each other, but just argue sensibly (if possible ), so I will do my best. I admit that saying “thanks for the article” was sarcastic and uncalled for and I apologize.

I do try and interpret things as agreeing with my perspective, but now and then it just can’t work and I have to change my opinion. This is not one of those cases.

I realize that -5+5=0, my point is that over 10 years, if someone uses marijuana for 5 of them, then 5 years later they finally are back at where they were 10 years ago, IQ wise. Now that I look at the numbers again, my concept was right but bmy numbers were wrong.

Lets say someone has a 100 IQ, well, if they use marijuana for 5 years for five or more days a week, according to the article they will have an IQ of (sorry, I was very wrong last time, it was approx. 4 IQ points less per year, so then: 4 IQ points x 5 years = 20 IQ points) 80. Now everyone around them (assuming they are non-users with IQs of 100) has been progressing at 2.6 (approx. 3) IQ points per year. So when the marijuana user has an IQ of 100, everyone else will have an IQ of (100+(35))=115. Now even if the user quits, five years later they will have an IQ of (80+(45))=110 (3.5 approx 4 points per year for former users), and everyone around them will have an IQ of (115+(3*5))=130.

So, according to the article, if you start using marijuana around age 12 (only age group tested), for five years, then you stop at age 17, at age 17 you will be 35 IQ points less intelligent than your non-user friends. Then, if you stop for the same amount of time that you had been using, five year, you will end up at age 22 except now you are 20 IQ points less intelligent than your non-user friends.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Peace it is then.

Well you are certainly coming to a different conclusion than the medical doctors that ran the study.:

I don’t see where it talks anywhere about yearly cumulitive IQ loss.I’ll give another quote from (the full article the link is at the top) which directly contadicts what you are saying. :

This quote is also interesting:

(bolding mine)

As admitted in the article there may be other non-IQ cognitive functions that are affected. This was a long term study, following the course of peoples entire lives and personally I find it pretty convincing. If someone does a similar study looking for ,for example, memory loss/non-loss I would be very interested to see it.

Also I don’t understand this comment of yours:
" if you start using marijuana around age 12 (only age group tested)"

This was a long term study, from the article:

and

I finally figured out where you are coming from trying to interpret those numbers. Looking at the chart you can see that interpretting them your way would indicate that “light” marijuana use increases IQ, a claim the doctors definatly did not make.

So if I understand this, right now we are arguing only about whether or not light marijuana use increases IQ, and we will work from here if needed.

I am only using what I read on the page you posted, nowehere else (because I would have expected you to post it).

These are the two pieces of evidence I used:
“…average decrease of 4.1 points in current heavy users…”
“compared to gains in IQ points for … non-users (2.6).”

Yes, the entire quote is “compared to gains in IQ points for light current users (5., former users (3.5) and non-users (2.6).” which does mean that light marijuana users gain 5.8 IQ points a year, as opposed to non-users which gain only 2.6 IQ points a year. I don’t believe this either, but I am quoting the article.

Well, I’ll keep looking but I do not see any yearly loss. The numbers given I believe are total difference from age group to age group.

I don’t know what you know about stats but the differences seen(-4 to 2 IQ points) I don’t believe are statistically significant for this study size.

"Yes, the entire quote is “compared to gains in IQ points for light current users (5., former users (3.5) and non-users (2.6).” which does mean that light marijuana users gain 5.8 IQ points a year, as opposed to non-users which gain only 2.6 IQ points a year. I don’t believe this either, but I am quoting the article. "
You were willing to believe it when it supported your view, please don’t be hypocritical. As I said the researchers did not conclude that light marijuana use increased IQ because the gain was statistacally insignificant. Please remember that these results are published in Canada’s leading medical journal not “High Times”.

All I can say is that you are the only one interpretting the results this way. The anti-marijuana crowd did not argue with the numbers when the Canadian Medical Association released the results earlier this year.

(the link I gave is to an abstract- an abstract is a summary of a full article- if you want to understand the study better read the full article. Maybe also read up on p-values and statistical significance)

Thank you for posting the link to the entire article. I know see what you were saying most of this time, and I have to agree with you. That is, I agree that the long term effects on IQ due to marijuana use of any sort is irrelevant based on the statistics from this study. However, even you agreed that: 1.) The number of subjects may not have been large enough, and 2.) There are other potential cognitive effects of marijuana that remain to be studied in greater detail (eg, any sort of link to being prone to develop schizophrenia).

I’m sorry Hubbs, were we disturbing your beauty sleep?I really do hate it when people come in and demand that a thread die because it’s boring them.

That said I officially quit the discussion with the following answers to direct questions.
1.) The number of subjects may not have been large enough,
Sure, but it’s going to be hard to do an entire lifetime study of much larger groups.

2.) There are other potential cognitive effects of marijuana that remain to be studied in greater detail
Also true. Also true that marijuana use may trigger problems in certain susceptible people. Time and research will tell.

I just want to throw in two cents here. I think probably the two best pieces of advice ever are “Everything in moderation” and “know thyself.”

Jerry Garcia once said something about ‘since the beginning of time, people have looked for ways to alter their consciousness.’ It still goes on today, and one of the most popular ways to ‘alter’ one’s world view these days is with reefer.

As a New Yorker, I worry more about the fumes I breathe in the city than the occassional toke I take. As a painter, I find that the effects of pot can open my creative doors a bit wider. Then again, smoke too much and you might wind up thick-headed and sluggish. It’s all about the balance for me.

I would like to say that I would rather smoke grass than drink liquor, for a bunch of reasons that you guys already know. Physiologically, I think that reefer is one of the more benign substances one can ingest for altering one’s ‘self.’ I would never touch anything chemically created, like crack, ecstacy, or PCP. But, historically, many people have used plants to get in touch with the divine. Our brains are running on chemical impulses, after all. Too much coffee and you’re jumpy. Too much chamomile and you’re sleepy. Everything we injest has its effect. So, again, ‘know thyself,’ and keep the whole moderation thing in mind.

I’d just like to back the fact that weed can cause schizophrenia. I actually have it, although it only affects me badly when I’m really stressed or depressed. And alot of the sideffects are very similiar to schizophrenia, pretty much just the general feeling of being ‘out of it’. And yes I am an idiot to smoke weed cause I’m probably making it worse, but I just don’t care about anything that much.

Well I think THC might cause schizophrenic type side effects(paranoia, disaccosiation) but that it causes someone to become a scitzophrenic(who is not already on the edge) has not been shown.

Yeah, I think I agree. Certain people are more likely to have schizophrenia, e.g. if it runs in the family, and if the person has been born with a mental illness. And these people are the only ones that would develop it from using marijuana. So if you’re not one of those people you should be able to use it as much as you like and never get schizophrenia, and if you could get it from using marijuana, then you could get it anyway. There are certain things that set it off, like stress and depression, so using marijuana is obviously just a major one of those. Well, thats my theory anyway.

Okay I haven’t read all the posts about pot but here’s my take on the topic. Some people don’t like it, some people do. I, personally, am proud to consider myself as a “pothead” (wasn’t that so flower child of me ). If you do the research, you will find out that no one has ever died due to smoking the drug. If they did, it was because it was laced with something or they did way way way too much of it. Like anything, if you do too much it will harm you. But in all the research I’ve done, I’ve never heard anything of a fatal joint. In fact, a sign of good pot is coughing. Why coughing? Because the THC opens your lungs and helps you to breathe. Definately not as bad as ciggarettes or beer.
Some of the earlier posts talked about social drawbacks of the drug. In my experience, I have seen nothing but positive effects. People become friendlier and more capable of laughing and enjoying themselves. And everyone knows that laughter is the best medicine. The only time I have seen someone get mean or shy while high is when that person was also doing some other type of drug (alcohol, ecstacy, etc.).
And if you find the right information you will learn that if this country were to start farming this mind altering plant it would gain so much. First of all, if it was legalized, there wouldn’t be nearly as much crime as there is now. There would be no shootings due to selling pot or owing money because of it. Plus, there are so many uses for it other than just smoking. Clothing can be made out of it. I’ve even read that it could possibly be formed into an alternate fuel source.
On the TOOL album Aenima, there is a track with a man speaking (I’m not sure of his name or his exact words but here’s the rundown) …if you think drugs are bad and should never be explored go home take all your CDs, all you albums, and throw them out. Because, you know what, those people who created all those beautiful things were really high on drugs…" And I completely agree. For example: Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, any band from the 60’s and 70’s, TOOL (obviously), tons of modern day bands, THE BEATLES!!! Need I say anymore about that??
But all in all, it really depends on the person. Someone on the forum said that the only reasons for smoking pot he has recieved have been “it’s fun” or “I like it”. Well, think about this. Why do people drink? To have fun. Why do people go watch movies? To enjoy themselves. Why do people study lucid dreaming? For most, it’s to experience things that they will never be able to experience AND to have FUN. Why do people smoke pot? Yes, to have fun. But also, to relax. To have a little escape from the troubles of their world and, a lot of long and interesting conversations with others and themselves.

To quote Speed from Waking Life
“…And on really romantic nights, I go salsa dancing with my confusion.”

Do you really think that that is a not high (or never been high) statement to make?

 Of course your opinion is your opinion and I respect that. I'm just giving out what information I have to give. I encourage everyone to develope your own opinion. I'll get off my soapbox now :eh:

It doesn’t surprise me in the slightest that you found that qoute on a tool album. Please don’t insult the talent of those other incredible musicians, drugs don’t make you talented, they can only enhance (or reduce) what is already there. Also i’m sure you’re not unaware that drugs are usually what ended their talent. And what now, people who choose not to smoke pot can’t listen to artists that use it? If you can’t appreciate good music without being high then you don’t deserve to listen to it.

Apologies to anyone not opinionated on music. No actually, sod that.

On a more general note, yes, fine, i’m no stranger to the fact that drugs are fun, but increasingly people are starting to see pot etc. as the saviour of mankind, and quite frankly this view is the path towards stupidity and incredible small-mindedness. It’s like people have found this new power to dismiss everything that is beautiful as the rantings of the junkie, instead of actually LOOKING. It’s nothing but an excuse for people not to use their brains.

Those were all very good points. BUT (you saw that one coming I’m sure), I never said that a person should be high to enjoy this great music. And sure, some of those artist’s lifes were ended due to drugs, but what drugs? Alcohol,cocaine, or something else, NOT pot. At least that was the case in Jimi’s and Janis’s death. They were probably smoking before that but that wasn’t the cause of their death. And like I said before I have never heard of someone dieing entirely due to pot. Or even a little due to pot. And I totally agree with the thing you said about drugs either enhancing or reducing a talent. I mean without LSD we wouldn’t have “Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds”.

You also said this: On a more general note, yes, fine, i’m no stranger to the fact that drugs are fun, but increasingly people are starting to see pot etc. as the saviour of mankind, and quite frankly this view is the path towards stupidity and incredible small-mindedness.

My response to this is that if so many people were thinking this way pot would already be legalized. And I personally don’t see it as a “saviour” of mankind although I do think that it could do some good in a few areas but it’s going to take a lot more to save mankind. It just seems to me that you have stereotyped pot smokers.
And maybe it’s just me but my take on the rest of that paragraph is you contradicted yourself. I don’t understand.

Let me just state that I am not trying to be confrotational. I feel like we are having an adult discussion and I enjoy it throughly.

Very good points though!

Example:

“…And on really romantic nights, I go salsa dancing with my confusion.”
Do you really think that that is a not high (or never been high) statement to make?

Okay so i’ve never seen the film and am making completely unfair judgements, but it’s stuff like this that annoys me. I do know that I’ve heard people discredit the whole of Jim Morison’s lyrics as stoned rantings (yes, some of it probably was), same way people said Purple Haze was about drugs (not so in hendrix’s own words) - I just think that a lot of music, art, poetry etc. is immediately downgraded because it is suggestive of drugs, or the artist has a drug history. Also, Lennon claimed Lucy in the sky was inspired by a picture by his daughter, but, well…no comment.

Yes, okay, maybe I got off the subject - no, certainly no-one ever died from pot. Yes, maybe i exaggerated about that saviour business but I know a lot of people like that - but then i also know people get misled by anything in life. I’m not knocking pot in the slightest, just some people’s attitude to it.

Oh, and an interesting point (not related to my argument): I know someone who started doing pot very heavily, and she actually became very ill. From what I gather the constant over-stimulating of the brain (admittedly combined with depression) led to a kind of overload which disrupted certain body functions, including the digestive system, to the point where she was constantly throwing up stomach acids and had to be hospitalised. I know this is probably more down to the depression than the pot, but still.

Good resource to show, but when that person(James maynard) was speaking, not only pot he was talking about. I think he was reaching to the fact of acid. This band really goes in depths of being or enijoying yourself, being Positive. Thats another quote that the lead singer tries to get some thoughts across, so we arent so jolted and uptight. You need some way of release , and in my case is smoking the buds and poping in a Tool ablum. But if you notice that song you were talking about , is called Third Eye. What that means is… acid and our third view of how seeing things and what they really are. This isn’t a excuse to do things, its just another point of veiw and soon maybe you can understand what they are trying to get acorss. Even though this had nothing to do with the posts, but i wanted to clerify it.

Well im being uptight now but gotta correct it…

And it’s Bill Hicks who is saying that. It was taken from his show. He was stand up comedian who died in cancer. His that another dead hero in Aenimas Cover art material at least in Euro version. Dressed like doctor.

This is what follows that Bill’s speach, not sure if it’s still Bill speaking though, i guess it is…

Anyways Third Eye is really great song.

And I think people should have the right to consume any plant they want to.

nature.com/nsu/020729/020729-6.html

I had no idea that was Bill, it sounded like maynard. Anyways, i have heard something about Bill Hicks on live songs from tool. They talk about how he is a great comedian and he died. I didnt know that was his voice during Third eye. See look at that, you see your own mistakes and see whats really happening. Well now i know why they mentioned Bill’s name numerous times. Thanks i didnt know