dream characters killing

flo (many post above) talked about merging DC and such… I’ve only been reading on the subject for a short time so I’m not really sure at all of what I experienced but here goes… This is a dream I had many years ago (I was 6 or 7 years old at the time), I have had other LD as it turns out yet nothing has ever matched nor resembled this one in any way, NOR do I wish EVER to have one of the kind…

   I remember awaking startled by something, I was lying down on my back just as I had gone to sleep. Suddenly the distinct 'RUSH' of fear from a nightmare washed over me. (I find it reasonably simple to auto induce a nightmare state, as I call it: Heart pounds strongly, adrenalin rush with greatly increased awareness accompanied by a great fear of something). Well, during all this time I had my eyes shut, upon feeling the nightmare state I opened my eyes and found that indeed I was lying on the bed in my room and floating not more than 2 feet from my face was what I can only describe as the devil's head. My right arm was lying outside the covers by my side and my left arm, which was 'trapped' under the covers, was gripping some cylinder or something(I never actually looked), yet I 'felt' it to be important

  Now comes the part that still sends shivers up and down my spine...  :sad: This daemon head, charged my face with teeth clashing. With my right arm I kept it at bay by holding its forehead, between the horns. It was a physical struggle! It kept lunging at me, each time I blocked, I felt myself getting weaker and weaker. Although I was repeating to myself: This is a dream, this is a dream, don't worry... The fear was starting to become overwhelming. I felt hopeless, noway did I have the means to defeat this THING, just when I was about to cave I (and someone PLEASE tell me what this means), called to my parents who slept across the room and in a very weak voice asked, no better yet COMMANDED them to "Lights! Turn on the lights!" (i believe those where the actual words). Well, that is exactly what they did! But instead of awaking, the daemon head simply vanished!!!! my arm suddenly passed through the space where moments ago he floated?!! Stranger still, I still was grasping the cylinder for at least 5 seconds!!!

    Now I have had many ND and some LD, but I always wake up from them. I can't explain what happened that night at all?? I clearly remember seeing my room, the starlit hallway and infront of it my parents door ajar. I remember struggling with this thing and barely making out the words, and how the lights went on and this AMAZING feeling of relief, of having been pulled away from death!! Watching how the thing dissolved into nothingness, I lay gasping for a while, yet fully aware!! (could I possibly have missed the transition to waking life somehow? moving in my sleep so my physical body was recreating my exact dream maybe??)

   Afterwards I fell asleep and had a LD where I created under my bed a thousand giant vats filled with molten lava (so it seemed). I carefully instructed thousands of little helpers (they seemed like living lego men), to cut the Daemon head, which was defeated by light??, into thousands of pieces and throw each piece into one of the vats. After watching and assurring myself that the task was well done I felt tremendously relaxed and promptly faded into unconciousness... I did wake up feeling wierd, although I can't remember anything from the next day. The dream is still fresh in my mind, as if i dreamed it yesterday. And all this was 15 years ago!!

(sorry if this should have been posted in another forum, but since this one’s about fighting it seemed to fit in, especially after reading about these super godlike DC) well thanx anyways :smile: and see you around!

oh about the DC fusing how do you do that? I want to try it but I dont want it to over power me plus I dont want a demon. How do they look like anyways? I dont want anything bad to happen to me afterwards.

i don’t expect people to go around killing in real life, i said for them to knock themselves out if they feel so inclined in their dreams

i’m brining this example up because i understand that you are chrisitian… christianity in some form or another has been around for 2000 years, and that encourages people to be positive… are all chrisians positive ??? nope

so if that is your argument against my stance… that it won’t produce the desired effect for everyone… i can criticize christianity with the very same argument

i’m NOT “yearning” that anybody be negative instead of positive. i thought i had made that clear. i AM yearning that people not shy away from their negativity, and explore it in a relatively safe medium (ie their dreams since this is a dream forum after all) AND that they balance their negativity with positivity

my choice for the willful exploration of negativity as long as it’s not at the expense of positivity is a spiritual decision as well

just as some people might continue terrorizing the dream world while you are advocating positivity, again you are criticizing my stance with the very same arguments that can be used against your stance. personally… it is not my goal to change everybody’s mind… if i can get 1 mind outta 100 to see what i see, i’d be happy. 1 outta 50… i’d be overjoyed

truthfully… this is the only part of your post i found offensive. do you really think i’d be up on my soap box talking about negativity versus positivity if i didn’t have what i would call a deep understanding of them both ??? if i haven’t studied and explored the roots of them both ??? i really hope you don’t think that little of me. you can think i’m wrong… that’s fine, but to suggest that i don’t understand what i’m talking about… shakes his head

nope, this is possible within one lifetime, i’ve seen it with my own eyes in myself and in others

Lol, ok, im one step ahead of you thought…
In my next dream im gonna get stoned and go on a rampage hehe! I could imagine myself in a cop station being all high and shooting them all away. Its like yes im high biches!

One thing you must undersand though all those against DC killing is that you cannot truely kill a DC, because they do not exist. Its like saying, oh im gonna go to hell for killing nothing. Can you kill nothing? Same thing goes with violent video games, when you kill a game character all is whats happening is the decontructor for the character object will be called, and all its memory will be equal to null. Is there anything wrong with calling a decontructor, I think not (for java the garbage collector will be used, I was talkiing about c++). So, in your mind when you kill the DC, all what happens is that your memory gets erased, nothing more.

I mean, then some argue, but your THINKING about killing, and thats wrong. Well, im not, cause you cannot kill a DC, like you cannot kill a game character, im THINKING about changing the memory in my head, or in my RAM.

So, as long as you keep your intention of killing non-existant things its fine. But, once you start fantisizing about killing the actual person, I mean if you start to do the killing because you really hate the real person, then I think its wrong.

So my overall opinion is, is that I should not kill Dream Characters that represent real people out of hate for a person that actually exists. Otherwise go ahead and kill anything in sight, even if they look like someone you know (keep in mind they are NOT that person). Now, thats my bottom line for my morals and such.

Keep in mind, that my MAJOR premis for this argument is that there is no such thing as shared dreams. But, I dont believe in them, since most dream characters seem fake, and that there is no proof after all these years of humans dreaming.

Let me add a few things:

------------------------QUOTE(hehe ghetoo style)--------------------
oneiromancer wrote this:

Once you begin to understand the roots of violence and other negativity, you may see it differently.

truthfully… this is the only part of your post i found offensive. do you really think i’d be up on my soap box talking about negativity versus positivity if i didn’t have what i would call a deep understanding of them both if i haven’t studied and explored the roots of them both i really hope you don’t think that little of me. you can think i’m wrong… that’s fine, but to suggest that i don’t understand what i’m talking about… shakes his head

I think the root of violence and negativity is where it is in your heart, or your intentions to be violent or negative. So, killing in your dreams is not the root. Also, you kill in your dream because of an intention or desire of your heart. And that is why I think you should not worry about if you are going around killing dream characters, but rather WHY you are. So, when I kill dream characters, I am not hating anyone, or even the dream character (there are not real, so hating them is silly), so I see no problem.

Violence brings more violence, in the end. Just look at the real world.

Of course you can’t because it would make no sense!
What fault is it of Christianity if somebody plainly doesn’t care even though they call themselves Christians?

Being positive or encouraging it won’t produce good results in everyone, but I see it as better than the opposite (not encouraging it).

There is no karma - it is appointed to man to live and then die once besides the fact that it would serve no purpose, and would be impersonal completely! But it’s getting out of the topic which I don’t want to.

I agree with you on this part even though I’m for no dream killing at all
except for a DC ‘dream acting’ the part of a person being killed.

Clarkkent, no offense, but that makes no sense to me… I’m not saying there IS karma, but if there is NO karma, it is NOT up to a man to make himself some sort of “good” person, and well if he isn’t greeted with “heaven” or “hell” or whatever, why even be good?

So I don’t know what you believe, but if you believe in heaven/hell, then imagine for a second you were born into the middle east, in a poor family of religious extremists… now… I don’t want to use this stereotype… but it’s the best one I can think of right now… they(the FAMILY, not the religion) are basically terrorists…

SO… your family, if you somehow managed to become “good”… well you’d probably wind up dead for blasphemy, becuase they want you to kill… whoever, jews, americans, it doesn’t matter… your religion (sort of) approves of doing such things, you firmly believe it’s okay to do them.

You believe senseless murder is good.

NOW putting a western twist on things… killing in the name of anything is pretty lousy, though, they are defending their homelands right now… so… but anyway… so… I would think most christians would say that terrorist, he’s an evil evil person, and he’s going to hell.

But you know what, it isn’t his fault he’s a terrorist, just like it isn’t your fault that you’re a christian, you just happened to be lucky enough to not be born into horrible abject poverty and oppression in the midst of a holy war.

You know? If any of us, if we were born into that mess over there… we’d probably not be very “good” people right now, nor would we EVER have the chance to develop a capacity to be good.

Try breaking the mindset of a religious zealot, you can’t… they are RIGHT, you are WRONG… and in some cases they’ll kill you over it.

To them it’s the correct way to be, and God wants it.

So how on earth, do you imply, that if we do not have a form of karma, that people like that ever possibly learn anything? If they only have one life, it’s a wasted life. If there is heaven or hell, either God is forgiving and understands what they went through (he put them there obviously) or he sends them to hell.

You can’t learn if you don’t have a suitable environment to learn in… you know? If you’re born into a never ending war, what are you to do? well… umm… FIGHT… or HIDE… but I don’t think you’ll have much time to worry about shaping yourself to be a spiritually balanced person, especially when you are bound at the feet by dogma.

We are lucky, we can sit here and think about these things, and well… for the most part, not be censored… if we lived in places where this kind of thinking was condemned, even punished, I guarantee none of us would “grow” or “develop”

So I mean if you believe there is nothing after death I don’t suppose it matters much, but if you’re going to pitch the “everyone should try and learn and grow and get along and find balance and be happy and loving” way of looking at things, then really there HAS to be karma, or reincarnation, or something, or most people won’t even have those opprotunities to grow like we have…

My point doesn’t have anything to do with the above mentioned religions, I’m just trying to show you that it is next to impossible for certain people to find a non-objective balance to things, to look outside of the box, to think for themselves… most people believe what their parents believe, worship who their parents tell them to worship, etc… you don’t just say “hey, wait, there is no GOD, this is all a lie” because thinking such things are blasphemy, and he’d smite you a good one… (or so everyone tells you)

I hope you can see what I’m saying, it’s painfully evident to me but … well… getting others to listen is almost pointless, sometimes.

we are victims of circumstance, everything about us is initially predetermined by our surroundings and envrionment, and unless that is an open envrionment, we have no potential for growth

^ really off topic…

okay then… oneiromancer… it is possible within one lifetime if you are lucky enough to have a good life where you are free to openly question religion, authority, society, and yourself… but look at most Americans, do they do that? Hell no… they do whatever they are told… you know? If you raised a kid in a cave and told him the outside world is full of poisona nd he’d die… he probably wouldn’t leave that cave (i believe there is a great story by Socrates, or Plato, about that)

But assuming you believe in multiple lifetimes, then how do you know it only took them one lifetime to get there? Maybe it had been progressively building for a few previous ones?
^ still really off topic, i know… sorry… while i’m at it, this is post #111, pretty odd today, the third synchronicity i’ve seen today, and haven’t seen any prior to this in a long while…


On topic, ErikW:
"I mean, then some argue, but your THINKING about killing, and thats wrong. Well, im not, cause you cannot kill a DC, like you cannot kill a game character, im THINKING about changing the memory in my head, or in my RAM. "
That is not going to cut it. You are KILLING them, just as much as you are KILLING a game character, why else would decide “let’s go on a killing spree for a larf!” ?? You ARE thinking about killing, okay? You don’t sit there say "hmm… I think it would be fun to think a weapon into existence, which then holds a place in the memory in my head, then I will move over to a dream character, which takes thinking power, which moves my fictional dream body, created by memory in my head, over to the dream character, who is basically just memory in my head based upon my construct of humans… then i’m going to take this fictional sword construct which does not exist, and put it through the DCs eyes, which do not exist, just so that I can wipe him from my memory.

I am not committing these actions because I think it would be fun to reinact murdering, I am doing them for the sake of … blah blah blah."

You are thinking about kililng them, I MEAN COME ON… I know you are… you might not think they will really die, but the bottom line is you want to “kill” some DCs for fun.

If you’re going to think like that, then you don’t FLY in dreams, you don’t WALK in dreams, you don’t FEEL in dreams… but you do, don’t you? Yes, you do.

It’s simulated killing using your own “hands” (or how your mind remembers you using your hands) … you have not necessarily killed anyone, but the end desire is killing spree, and the end result is simulated death (or whatever your DCs fancy doing when you try to kill them… mine don’t usually die unless its an ND, and … well… I rarely “kill” in LDs, I just fight off recurring demons now and then, or sometimes I find myself being attacked or in a war like dream.)

What I’m saying is the intent is to “kill”… maybe not in a malicious way, maybe in playful “bang bang you’re dead” way, like you do as a kid… who knows… but the intent is to do it all the same.

that statement isn’t necessarily true. violence doesn’t always bring more violence. i’ll point to martin luther king jr, gandhi, and (since christianity has been brought up) jesus. all three of them responded to violence with non-violence

could you call them the exception to the rule ??? i don’t think that would be fair, my roomate threw cold water on me in the shower the other week. i declined to mirror his actions when he was in the shower.

have you ever seen the movie fight club ??? i think the scene in that movie where they were given a “homework” assignment to get into a fight with a random person on the street was a very good example of the point i’m trying to make here. the people in fight club found it very hard to start a fight with a person on the street no matter how aggressively they acted

if i can’t criticize christianity for not producing positivity in everyone, then by the same token, you can’t criticize my stance for not producing its desired effect in anyone that may adhere to it. and the desired effect of my stance is to arrive at balance by the exercise of and the understanding of both negativity and positivity

you are misunderstanding my stance if you think that i do not encourage positivity. i like positivity, i encourage positivity, but in the same breath i will say that positivity shouldn’t be exercised in opposition to negativity (and that negativity shouldn’t be exercised in opposition to positivity) they should be mixed, employing positivity when it is correct to do so, and employing negativity when it is correct to do so (and yes i AM making the claim that there are instances when it is correct to be negative)

learning to make that distinction when it is correct to be positive and correct to be negative can only be arrived at by having a deep understanding of them both. the average person already has a good idea of positivity since in general positivity is encouraged in our society, but negativity usually has a stigma associated with it. it is my aim to encourage people to throw off that stigma and study and exercise negativity in healthy ways

why does everything have to be so black and white ??? why does not encouraging positivity (which i already said above is what i am NOT doing) encourage negativity ??? why does absence of white mean that there has to be black ??? why can’t it be green ???

i think you’re misunderstanding of my stance is that you believe i am saying “be negative” and that is it. that is not what i am saying, i AM saying “it’s okay to be negative if you balance it with something positive” i’m also making the claim that it is possible to transform negativity into positivity, but that’s getting into something else

my philosophy professor calls what you just made a “slippery slope” argument, in that doing action A will irrevocably cause one to arrive at action B where action B is much worse than action A

we were told to NEVER make this argument because it is a bad one. and i will tell you why…

why does doing evil lead to more evil, if i punched someone in the face and they started to cry… does that mean i’m going to go and punch 15 people in their faces… maybe 30 ??? not necessarily

why can’t i punch somebody in the face, see that they cry, and then say to myself “wow that person cried when i hit them in the face, that was really a bad thing to do, i think i’m going to not punch people in the face anymore”

that is an example where a negative action didn’t lead to more negative actions. one negative act doesn’t start a landslide of more of them… it CAN lead to a landslide of more negative actions, but it doesn’t do so as a universal law

anyway, i do understand that “evil” is in the heart, what i disagree with is the notion that one “evil” necessarily causes another greater “evil”

The slippery slope argument is invalid. I took a logic class, and the reason why it is invalid is becasue of this:

If I kill someone right now, thats voilent. Now, it is possible for me to be all guilty about it and then all of a sudden find Jesus and be all, oh I should not be violent. And, then I wont kill anyone else or be voilent ever again.

Um, also your forgetting that you cannot kill dream characters, why?

Kill in my dictionary means to deprive of life… and there are other definitions, but when you say dont kill from a moral aspect, its talking about killing things that live. So, since dream characters are not real, you cannot deprive them of life since they do not have life.

Now what about violence, well the definitio of violence is: using or involving physical force intented to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.

Now, if you are violent towards a dream character, you are assuming that the dream character is someone or something. Now the dream character is non someone. But, what is the precise definition of something? I mean I know it generally, but what is it specifically?

something definition: A thing that is unspecified or unknown. (well for the the violence towards something, the definition does not know what your talking about so it uses the word something).

Know, whats a thing?

thing definition: An object that one need not, cannot, or does not wish to give a specific name to.

What is an object: A material thing that can be seen and touched.

What is material mean as an adjective: denoting or consisting of physical objects rather than the mind or spirit.

Now, I did not mean to be all redundant, BUT, I proved a point. Is that from my dictionary (Which is "The Oxford American College Dictionary), that voilence ONLY applies to physical objects and not mere hallucinations or dreams. So, clarkkent, it is immposible to be voilent towards a dream character. Now, you could argue that dream characters are people… but im asssuming they are not. Thats my premis, now if you believe that dream characters are real, then my argument is valid, yet not sound (keep in mind that a valid argument can still be false).

So what im saying, is that if you say violence breeds more violence, then um Clarkkent, this does not even partian to this topic because violence or killing a dc is not possible! :cool: .

So, its really the thought of being violent or killing (which again has to pertain to a real person or real object, not a hallucination)

first i’m going to concede that we defintely are inded lucky to be ablte to openly question religion, authority, socieity and ourselves. now i’m not too sure that it’s fair to say that most americans don’t exercise this freedom… granted, they could exercise it more than they do

as far as people doing what they are told, i don’t by that at all. people will often times do the exact opposite of what they are told… hence the archetypal rebellious teenager. i remember when i was very young my mom told me to never bring home a “little white girl” and how much do you wanna bet that the first girlfriend i ever brought home was white ??? but i guess i could be the exception, but the same token i do know some people that faithfully obey their parents or authority, but i do know plenty that disobey

as far as the kid never leaving the cave, i think he’d leave, by telling him that the outside world is a scary place, would plant the seed of insatiable curiousity about it

hmm… maybe, but i don’t that can be the explanation for all examples

WOW mis a day mis a lot. :cool_laugh:

Clark Kent

I’ll tell you when this discussion started I may have disagreed with you. But, at least I respected you and your beliefs. I am sorry but, right now I have little if any respect left for you. I found a lot of your comments to be a bit offensive. I am not going to respond to each one because oneiromancer did that job very well.

The only thing that I will add is that you are a perfect example of what happens when a person is out of balance. So “good” that anyone who thinks differently than you is labeled as evil. In reality, it is when people or, a society develop this level of “goodness” that the greatest of evil acts are committed.

I hope that you can one day find balance. :yinyang:

Best wishes

oneiromancer

:lol: I can testify to that. I can’t believe I survived childhood.

Holy Reality

We seem to be having some trouble explaining what we mean. Let me try this.

If you were to use every one of your LD’s to hack and slash people every night. I would probably say that could be unhealthy for you. Even if you did, I would not consign you to the ever burning pits of hell either. In reality you would have done nothing wrong. Your dreams are not real. Even though they can feel real. However, you would also be missing out on so many other experiences you can have in a lucid dream. Lucid Dreams can be used to experience anything and everything free of the shackles of morality, physics, laws or even guilt. Why? Because they are not real. I sense that you may be caring a heavy burden. One you do not deserve to carry. I do not care what you did in your LD. You have not committed any “crime”. You are not evil. In fact I have read quite a few of your posts and I believe you are a good person. That is really all you can ask of your self. Now that we have established that you are a good person, “acting out”negative scenarios or exploring your dark side in a LD does not make you a bad person. It does not change who you are. The vast majority of my LD ‘s are positive rewarding experiences, but (in a small amount of my dreams) as I have openly said I have thrown a few tantrums, explored taboos, and took a look at my darker side. You know what? They were each rewarding in there own way too.

Just something for you to start to think about. Well talk more tomorrow.

Be easy on your self and have Happy Dreams :smile:

Ok, since you cannot really kill a dc (but you can think you can)… lets try to get dream charactesr to all kill each other, or even them selves… anyone try this? hehe. I think it would be funny to have dream charactes duke it out. Or what about getting a dream character to go on a rampage WITH you, like have him be your dream charactter ganking partner hehe.

So your against something that is impossible to do? Are you insaine?

^^^ let’s not turn this into a name-calling match please

or maybe have all your DCs duke it out, and the stronger ones absorb the weaker ones until there’s only one left and then personally beat that one and absorb him :devil:

maybe i watch too much anime :bored:

forget childhood, i’m still trying to figure out how i’m currently surviving young adulthood :yinyang:

how do u absorb them? if you do can you get stronger :happy:? I want to try that heheh has anyone tried it?


ErikW…

I’m a hallucination.

Disprove it. Can you? Not unless you know me, but even then…

Main Entry: vi·o·lence
Pronunciation: 'vI-l&n(t)s, 'vI-&-
Function: noun
1 a : exertion of physical force so as to injure or abuse (as in effecting illegal entry into a house) b : an instance of violent treatment or procedure
2 : injury by or as if by distortion, infringement, or profanation : OUTRAGE
3 a : intense, turbulent, or furious and often destructive action or force b : vehement feeling or expression : FERVOR; also : an instance of such action or feeling c : a clashing or jarring quality : DISCORDANCE —applies to dreams.
4 : undue alteration (as of wording or sense in editing a text)

Main Entry: vi·o·lent
Pronunciation: -l&nt
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin violentus; akin to Latin vis strength – more at VIM
1 : marked by extreme force or sudden intense activity –applicable to dreams
2 a : notably furious or vehement
b : EXTREME, INTENSE applicable to dreams
3 : caused by force : not natural

4 a : emotionally agitated to the point of loss of self-control
b : prone to commit acts of violence applicable to dreams

  • vi·o·lent·ly adverb

understand that these dictionaries are not works of “God” and definitions are certainly ALWAYS up to speculation, interpretation, and scrutiny.

Are you familiar with the story? It’s told better than I can tell it… take for instance the witch hunts, no one ever saw any witchery (or so we believe) but they jumped all over small coincidences and sickness and whatnot… they BELIEVED people were witches, so much so, that they killed killed killed etc…

If you live in a society bound by irrational superstitions like that, man… you are not going to be likely to break free… the same applies to the cave analogy… let’s say 20 people lived in a cave… they had a “cave leader” who was “holy” and therefore could leave it and not die, but it didn’t apply to anyone else… now, once in a while, maybe he takes someone out, to test their holiness… then kills them, drags their corpse back in, tells them “this man was not pure, this is why you do not leave the cave”

It’s simple. It really is… why do we have cults? Why was Charles Manson so damn good at what he did (LSD helped though…) ?

It is very very very easy to control someone… just look at America, if you question the governemnt and stand up for constitutional rights, that means you are un-partriotic and anti-american… and can get you in heaps of trouble with hicks…

The rebellious teenager is a construct of a free society the rebellious teenager in places BOUND BY IRRATIONAL BLIND FAITH is going to be severely chastised for acting out against authority and questioning his beliefs.

It’s basic conditioning. You know? Granted they can’t get inside your head, maybe you don’t believe but you pretend for the sake of staying alive… but what kind of existence is that? How do you grow?

They keep us from growing by keeping us away from pscyhedelic drugs, for example (and yes they can be very psychologically dangerous, too) and guess what… it works… I’m afraid of them, but moreso, my parents… and I refrain from exploring a facet of reality that I really yearn to explore… and it causes a lot of problems for me… denying this.

anyway…

I don’t believe that what I do in my dreams is evil… I do believe it is pointless, and that sometimes may be harming real life people… and it does bother me that I do it so much… but it really depends on the context.

I had tons of pointless sex and adventuring this morning, it didn’t bother me at all… I couldn’t help but wonder why I never set meanwhile activities for myself, but I didn’t see an issue with it… everything was so abstract and fragmented and I wasn’t fully lucid… it was probably a mild release for me.

I also beat the ever loving crap out of a man and threatened to shoot him, too… he was messing with me… one of the recurring dream themes that bothers me… I snapped on him… and yeah it did feel good. Afterward I apologized, tried to figure him out… he turned into what looked akin to a kind of skinned toddler and said some nonsensical stuff about my childhood… probably becuase I tried to pull some psychoanalysis on him… but I told him I loved him, tried to merge with him… it didn’t really work…

But I mean I figure… you know, if something is bothering me to the point of desiring to defend myself agianst it in a dream, why not? In the aftermath I can always cool down and try to figure out where it’s coming from, but it also hopefully gives it the message to CUT IT OUT… I don’t know…

My mind is very insane… none of these dreams were as lucid as normal consciousness was, so I mean… I wasn’t really myself… I just see it as a reflection of my underlying impulsive natures… and want to correct it… and when I am fully lucid I try not to do that kind of stuff, because I don’t really approve of it… or if I do do it, I find a non malicious and tasteful way to do it (like dream dating… or… finding some sort of battle with my friends)

Keep in mind that I do believe in shared dreaming, too, based upon experience. If I didn’t I probably wouldn’t even bother with this thread.

ever read descartes’ meditations ??? i thought they were very good, he offers a proof (a rather convincing one i thought) of why you are not a hallucination

no i am not familiar with the cave story, your revision of it sounds more convincing though. i’m still not satisfied that one of the 20 people who lived in the cave wouldn’t defy the leader and go have a peek for himself though

anyway your argument (and you’ll correct me if i’m wrong) seems to be about how society can coerce the individual if not into believing as society does, but at least in pretending to agree as society does. i’ll concede that that much is true, BUT in our society we don’t get put in jail or killed for having different opinions, so the only chastisement we can really receive is name-calling and being ostracized by a group of people we probably don’t wanna hang out with anyway.

a strong, rooted person isn’t going to be swayed by that.

look at the women’s rights movement.
look at the gay rights movement.
look at the protests against the war in iraq.

Holey reality

Here is something to think about.

In a LD you can not harm yourself. You could jump off the highest mountain and all you would do is wake up. You can (I’ve done it) cut off your arm, look away and when you look back you will find that your arm has returned. So if you can not harm yourself how can you passably harm anyone else.

That is completely normal !!! I think everyone does that. I know that I do. Though I would not characterize them as pointless. I enjoy them very much. I think that part of your problem is the low level of lucidity. May be you should work on increasing your lucidity and vividness. Then you will be able to create dreams that have more meaning to you. Before you do anything in a LD use what ever prolonging methods work for you and try to intensify the dream. That might help you think more clearly. Also if you have a plan of what you want to do in your LD tonight that might also help.

I enjoy a lot of adventure novels/movies and I some times enjoy acting out scenes from a move or book. What is your favorite movie or book. Think about it. It might help you with becoming more creative in your LD.

I believe that there are many things that go beyond Lucid Dreaming based on my own experiences as well. It is hard to explain but, they occur somewhere else. Beyond the dream world. What you do does not influence those realms any more than dreaming affects real life. I have not had any experiences with shared dreaming but, I would think that they would also occur beyond lucid dreaming. However, if it is something that you are worried about I would suggest that you create your own DC ‘s to interact with. That way that you will know that they do not exist. Then you can pretty much do what you want and it won’t matter because you will know they are not real.

On a side note:

This is (one of many) reasons why I am completely uninspired by most organized realigns including the one I was baptized into. I agree with you, it often leads to rigid thinking.

That is not the correct definition.