Male circumcision.

pasQuale, my statements do sound like “child owenership” but I didn’t intend for it to sound that way.
Some people here want to argue that it should be a personal choice, and I wanted to give examples of how parents must make choices for their children/infants.
Most of the choices that parents make for you while you are infants are life changing. Ask any psychologist and they will trace your problems back to your parents and infancy.

and “cleansing” is not usually a main reason for circumcision for just the parents, but if so it shouldn’t be seen as “egotistical” because the circumcized males also have the benefits of “less maintenance” … but this is only one of the many reasons this practice has been handed down the thousands of generations.

I kept my boys from being circumsized. With the birth of my first one I hemmoraged and was very weak. The hospital folk tried to slip past me and circumsize him anyway. I ended up throwing the first public tantrum of my life and finally signed a bunch of papers to stop them. That was 25 years ago. I hope things have changed by now. As with anything of importance, you educate yourself and when you know better, you do better, right?

I never had a bit of trouble with them with infections then, nor do they have problems now. Being blessed with plenty of soap and clean water—and communicating the importance of keeping oneself clean Everywhere—worked beautifully. Dh has scaring from the procedure and was quite willing to spare his sons. Religious mutilation has no place in my life.

As for stds, the same kind of communication between us taught them that if they aren’t careful, sex can kill them now. Be picky and use condoms. Thankfully, they have…

Pax

“Please remember the lower number of penis cancer in circumcised men and the lower transmission rates of STDs”

If you had read the things I listed (i know i listed a lot) it points out that the circumcised penis is much more likely to bleed during sex, increasing the risk of STDs…

The STD argument is weak at best.

I have spots of … like… torn skin… sometimes… i’ve had a few instances of bleeding, too.

dentistry is done out of absolute necessity, and the children have a voice in it at least… you give them fillings to save their teeth… if circumcisions were ONLY issued when necessary to save the penis (i can’t see why you can’t just upload some antibiotics if you have an infection going on for most cases) then it would be an apt analogy, but as it stands, it isn’t.

There is no harm done by keeping teeth clean, there is tremendous harm and DANGER done via circumcision.

technodreamer how long ago was it that you were circumcised, in your youth, or in a time of already sexual development? if the latter how does the feeling in the glans compare to before you were cut? Do you need lube?

Actually when you think about it dentistry is basically cosmetic as well. I mean if you do not go to the dentist what is the worst that can happen? Your teeth will rot and you will be unattractive. Ok so you will have pain too. Nothing a good pair of pliers can’t fix.

I am beginning to think the hole circumcision thing is also cosmetic. Since many people from other parts of the world have never heard of these mystery infections. Now don’t get me wrong. I don’t feel raped or mutilated either and everything works just fine.

What is scary is that when you compare all the links (for and against) it’s like the battle of the experts. How can anyone make an informed decision about what is best.

I don’t recall ever bleeding during sex.

well dentristy is comestic to a point, I mean, I for one, do not have the best teeth in the world but you know, never had braces and don’t really care.

But you know if something needed to be done to SAVE my teeth i’d be all for it… same thing with circumcision if it was some dire last effort thing to save the penis somehow…

Now granted I do like getting my teeth all clean and polished but that isn’t really “painful” per se, it’s not ruining anything, it’s not taking anything away, and it’s not done 100% against your will.

Now yes, I agree, they do circumcision mainly out of tradition and social cosmetic appear, but that is entirely different.

I’d be like carving body art into your skin, except you’re not the one doing it, your parents are… or tattooing an infant…

but worse… it can’t be undone.

and I mean I know I’m biased but I mean
circumcision pros: look (yeah right, not a pro to me) religion (again, yeah right, you don’t get to choose your religion, it’s forced upon you) sanitation (umm, if you live in america, europe, asutralia, whatever, this shouldn’t even be an issue)…

cons: extreme pain… gross desensitization… keritzation, pain during erections, possible complications resulting in infant death… likelihood of bleeding, scarring, bowed erections…

yeah umm… seriously, what’s the deal? Maybe none of you have any of those but keeping the penis CLEAN is easy, JUST WASH IT! okay? you shouldn’t be having sex without a condom either unless you’re married or in a committed relationsihip, so there you go.

milod it isn’t so much mass bleeding it’s that there are small scarred and open exposed secondary layers of skin due to minor tearing resulting from the circumcision process not leaving you enough skin to maintain an erection properly… and also masturbation/sex can re-open and you know rough up to the point of minor bleeding those spots…

I’d be surprised to hear that you don’t have ANY “bare” spots on the shatft somewhere that form time to time you notice they get really raw, maybe even bleed a little.

I do…

yeah a condom fixes that but what abuot oral sex, that’s a good way to get aids if you’re prone to penile bleeding … (of course bleeding gums too… dammit… stupid STDs…)

plus said anatomically … the penis is supposed to produce it’s own lubrication, the glans is supposed to be a mucous membrane, pair you dryself with a somehwat dry girl and you’re asking for complications… it’s just not “normal” at all… it totally impairs the intended functioning of sex, masturbation, etc.

the vagina has it’s own folds of skin/protections/cushions from the outside world, why would you make an organ that is going to eb exposed to the elements and not give it extreme protection from them (i.e. foreskin) ? Why would you take that away… what if the vagina was just so gaping hole sticking out totally dried up and devoid of lubrication ?

That’s not the damn way these things are supposed to work.

For me, I can answer in the order listed:
No
No
NO! I now understand the term “keritzation”
No
No
No
No

Sounds like you did not have a proper circumcision. You have every right to be upset with circumcision. Techodreamer and Greeneyes have added valuable comments to both sides of this discussion. Greeneyes is an American that refused and disagrees with circumcision, and Techo is European and it was necessary for him.

HolyReality, what does tell you why they decided to have you circumcised? Have you told them about your complications? Was their complications at the time of the circumcision?

EDIT: NO!

I am not against it, but like all treatements, they should be used more responsibly.

There is a little problem when people say that it is forced upon them. I could easily say that some babies have cristening forced upon them. I could say that it is unfair to the child, and that they should be able to choice their own religion. Yet we happily accept cristening without complaints.

No
No
No
No
No
No
No
No

likelihood
No, I disagree.

She meant keratinization. I beleive this is an infamous word for the harding of the skin. Like at the edges of you toes etc. Try “cornification”

Bleading comes as a result of very, very freuent masturbation, but as you develope your skin become tougher (especially on your body), and so the bleeding ceases to ever happen.

I am not sure who to agree with.

"Bleading comes as a result of very, very freuent masturbation, but as you develope your skin become tougher (especially on your body), and so the bleeding ceases to ever happen.

I am not sure who to agree with."

hence desensitization!

you cannot say NO to that, it’s a fact, it’s plain and simple! anyone play guitar? I do… my fingers are 100% different than they used to be before playing… whereas they used to hurt like hell and sometimes bleed they are numb and calloused, whooohoo!
(this is a desired effect in this case)

SAME DEAL WITH YOUR WANG!

i dont’ care what you say you cannot deny that there will be desensitization due to the elements of friction and lack of lubrication and constant exposure to clothes, dryness, etc.

I mean… it’s just COMMON SENSE

the problem is we have no way to compare, we don’t know what it’s like to be uncut, we might think “hey i’m sensitive” but in reality it couldn’t be further from the truth, this severely bothers me.

I didn’t list the cons for you guys to necessarily say “nope I’m fine” I listed this to show the the benefits of circumcision (what benefits in this day and age? not many) outweight the potential irreversible harm done to the penis.

and umm this is not something I think I could ever talk to to my parents… i’m not “open” with them, and I’m not sure why, partly through some stuff I went through in middle school that really warped me and turned me introvert… partly because I feel oppressed by their political and religious and legal views… like I can’t relate to them a ton.

Partly because they would always tease me about girls since you know, FOREVER and it really bothered me and made it to where even if I had a girlfriend right now I’d be reluctant to tell them about it.

so i mean they justed handed me a book about sex… no talking (thank goodness) … it’s something we talk about … we don’t even fucking you know, use profanity…

no sexual jokes, my brother’s too young… so i mean i’m open with my peers to a degree, esp online, but that’s not something to ever be mentioned around parents.

they did it for ignorant religious and traidtional reasons I assume though.

and I 100% object to infant baptizement and forcing into a religion too… totally… at least you can reverse that though… I was baptized, of my own free will though, I dont’ care, it doesn’t mean anything to me anymore, I mean… it’s not like baptizement involves you know, putting the mark of the beast on your head, putting a chip in your hand… altering you forever in an unchangeable way… etc.

HolyReality, if I were to imagine “chip in hands/mark of the beast” implanted into infants … It’s scary to imagine my arguments about the “well being” of children and the choices parents take for them used agasinst me.
Chip implants for pets are marketed with fear of loosing their pets, and it’s been said human implants for kids to help with abductions … scary thought. “it’s a slight discomfort for preventive maintenance” eck!

I looked up the definition of “keratinization”
-"The conversion of squamous epithelial cells into a horny material, such as nails. Also called cornification"
NO, I didn’t add the word “horny” [size=75]makes note to also looks up the definition of “horny”[/size]

My penis has NEVER looked like hair or fingernails! … or the bottom of my foot, or a callus on my finger for that matter.
I don’t play a sting instrument with my penis, nor do I step on it when walking. God bless those that do.

I have played Bass guitar, and I do know very many guitar artist. The fingers are pressed very hard into slim course metal strings. Eventually they do grow tough, but they can still feel with their fingers or get tickled with a feather on their feet. It is much tougher than before and less sensitive, but this cannot be compared to a penis.

The glans or head of a penis does not encounter such stress to cause “keratinization.”

Wow, lots of info here
i dont agree with it and i think there should be lots of material out there that gives both the pros (from the looks of it not many) and the cons so that parents can make a decision based on what they believe.
In the end it is upto your parents, i dont belive it should be made illigal because the child is the parents responsability and im all for a libertarian government that allows everyone to make there own decisions.
I can say that i am SO SO SO SO glad me mum had the sense not to ask for it, here in New Zealand its not a commanplace thing anyway.

Thanks mum

Thank you, sme_bro. This is how I feel. I searched out information that wasn’t readily available (sort of like I have to do now to find out what my government is really up to) and make my own decisions about it (despite the disapproval tossed at me by friends and family…um again…sort of like now). I read stuff and talked to people about circumcision back in the day. Gasp!

In the end, it came down to one simple fact: I didn’t want one of my infants’ first experiences in this world to be one of severe pain. Most of you will make this decision for your infant some day. Somewhere inside, to some degree, you will feel this thing that I felt.

I know only a bit of how people see this in other countries. I thank you all for being so willing to discuss all sorts of things in this forum. Namaste.

I feel I need to say something more. I want to say that circumsised males and their parents should not feel guilt or shame or less than or any anger about this subject. Remember, I had to insist (loudly) and was made to look stupid and sound stupid when I tried to talk about it. I was hurt and extremely annoyed, but more than those things, I was stubborn and determined. Dh was complete support and that made me so much stronger.

Other mothers I’ve talked to have said the dads didn’t want the son to look different from himself and other boys “in the locker rooms” (BIG sports factor in USA). The mothers didn’t put any effort into wanting to be made to sound stupid (hello), so they just agreed without really thinking about it. “Everybody does it. You have to sign papers not to have it done!” Not everyone has support, not everyone knows where to look for information and…yeah…I’m pretty stubborn when it comes to love. Oh and dh says, “Besides, you don’t miss what you never had…why worry about it now?”

If it happens for medical reasons, well that explains itself, doesn’t it? How could anyone be upset about that? Can we say, Yea! I have one!?

BTW, I am writing a book about pregnancy, childbirth and newborns. This is for women who suddenly find themselves pregnant and without a clue. It has been interesting to hear the male points of view. Is there anything any of you, male or female, would want to see/say in a book like this?

I know compassion is the key and love is the treasure.

Sandy

Nice posting GreenEyes

Interesting you are writing a book about pregnancy,childbirth and newborns.
Maybe you can take this topic into it to and write from compassion about it on an informative way.

I think it is good if ppl get aware that a lot of there so called individual choices are rooted and often made from there cultural collective background.
Because its not about judging circumcision, but about getting aware what freedom, compassion and respect is for that newborn wonderful child where you as a parent are responsible for.

What we need is not judging but knowing the truth that circumcision is not really necessary.
Because the lie that it is really better and necessary is the root for all of this collective behaviour.
With that knowledge parents will be able to make at least a choice not based upon a lie but from there own heart .

I think this all is about clear info for parents, info that is not coloured by our collective inheritance, coloured by ideologies from society, but based up on facts! And telling those clear facts to the parents instead of telling whats best for them to decide, because when u tell whats best u make a choice for them instead they make a choice for themselves and for there newborn child based on the facts.
Only then you give parents a base to make a honest choice from for what they believe is best for there newborn child.
Parents have then the freedom to fully be responsible for there kids and not let society choose for them.

So its about do we dare to let parents be responsible for there newborn kid themselves, by telling them the true facts?
Or do we want to let society make that choice for them by telling them not the facts but a subjective conclusion taken from the facts.
And that way make the decission for them in a way.

I personal am in favor for informing ppl the facts and then let them interpretate those themselves, and let them make there own choices else u take away from ppl there freedom and there own responsibility.

Are you the owner of a penis? Playing a guitar is nothing like a masturbation.

No. I didn’t mean tougher that way, I meant more resistant to damage. This still makes the penises skin very sensative.

Prehaps. That’s why it is important to wash and stay healthy. I wont deny it, but I have not experienced any loss of sensation.

Then what does it matter. Why are you against it?

YOu have to respect people’s choices. Telling them they are ignorant is, irronicly, ignorant of yourself.

[QUOTE]
My penis has NEVER looked like hair or fingernails! … or the bottom of my foot, or a callus on my finger for that matter.[/QUOUTE]
Lol. Mine neither. I let you know when it does though.

Holy, I think you are just getting irrational now, I mean you were cut 18 years ago just forget about it, as the great pumba said “Just put your past in your behind” and then Timon says “thats put your behind in your past, pumba”

Yeah

hmmm
good point
do I own my penis?

well, since my current GF is a controling freak all signs point to NO!
GFs rules
Not allowed to look at porn
Not allowed to let another girl touch it
Not allowed to let another girl see it

hrm

it DOES seem like she owns my penis!

all you people saying you can get over it are not having to take 20-30 minutes to get a ■■■■■■■ orgasm.

i thought of something interesting… having sex while uncut must be like having sex WHILE masturbating, right? Not only do you rub against her skin, you rub against your own, as it slides up and down due to the dynamics.

Jesus… what the hell, we really are ripped off here.

and it’s ridiculous to say you haven’t noticed desnseitization, that’s the point, you don’t notice it, it gradually builds up from the day you were born and goes haywire when you start masturbating, especially if you have to use lubricants and don’t have access to the stuff that is personally made for masturbation, have to use soap, etc.

do you think one day i was coming in 30 seconds and the next it took 30 minutes? umm… no… but it progressed that way.

don’t these two kind of contradict each other (being for choice but being extremely glad you weren’t knob butchered?)? I can choose to molest my children, that doesn’t make it right…

Maybe I should just choose to have my babies penis removed so it will never have sex because I suddenly had a revelation that the world is overpopulated and sex is evil, but don’t want to abort the thing because it’s already born.

YOU CANNOT HAVE THE FREEDOM TO MAKE THOSE CHOICES.
Think about it… what’s to stop a mother from circumcising her 12 year old son one day against his will and arguing it was her choice, she should have done it sooner… blah blah blah.

*it’s done against his will.
*it’s traumatic to no end
*it can never be reversed.
*it’s ■■■■■■■ painful.

you can argue “he can choose not to or say no”
DON’T YOU THINK THE BABIES ARE TRYING TO SAY NO WHEN YOU START ■■■■■■■ WITH THEM?

don’t you think an animal is saying no when you try to abuse it for fun?

god.

this is common sense. if you are going to let parents choose to circumcise their kids you need to let them choose to leave their kids in dumpsters, you need to let them choose to make them eat their own feces and live in the closet at all times. You need to let them choose how much food they get (maybe one serving a week will be good)

IT’S ALL CHILD ABUSE.

so my question is where do you guys draw the line?

one last example, should we inject girls with long term birth control shots so that they very rarely have their periods because “bleeding” is “unclean?” should we just give them full out histerectomys because there’s a chance that they MAY die if they happen to pregnant, just like you MAY get an std if you’re uncut… and plus hey they won’t have periods, and that keeps their hygiene up a bit?

child abuse
the non-accidental act of causing injuries to a child either by the parent or guardian, or allowed by the parent or guardian.

The emotional, psychological, physical, sexual or social abuse of a child including neglect. •Residence

Physical, sexual, or emotional violation of a child’s health and well-being.

– A condition in which children are victims of or at risk of neglect, abandonment, physical or emotional mistreatment to the extent that their safety is compromised. (kids can die from it, i’d say their safety is compromised, not out of medical necessity, out of “what the hell, we want him to look artificial like the rest of the boys”)
google.com/search?hl=en&lr=& … hild+Abuse

and keep in mind the risks of circumcision seem to heavily outway the risks of being uncut given the acesss we have to anti-biotics and SIMPLE COMMON SENSE CLEANING.

Well you can die from taking just one aspirin. Yes it has happened. But, giving an aspirin to a child for a headache is not abuse. Everything in life has some potential for risk. How many newborns have died, had to have sex change, or suffered other ill effects as a result of the procedure?

I am not trying to make light of your concerns. It sounds like you were a victim of a botched procedure. I don’t have anywhere near the problems you mentioned above. It sounds like you were really injured and perhaps you should see a lawyer and find out if you are entitled to compensation for your injuries.

I said i dont agree with it, but there is also a line you must draw for who is in control of the child, I agree that it is a bad thing and it should not be done(conclusion drawn from what i have read here) but i think that parents should be responsable for the children, of course there will be parents that make the wrong decisions…but you have to hope that the majority of people will make the right choice.
You cannot rely on the government to control these things (which is what i am assuming you are getting at) it is unfair on parents who lose some of their control with the children.
I think you are very very passionate about this subject, maybe you should take the initiative and make up some brochures full of information to give to parents… if you want to make a difference start thinking bigger.

glad i don’t remember when that happened…