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Disappointment - falsehoods and lack of depth

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Omnisomnia
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Disappointment - falsehoods and lack of depth
PostPosted: Thu 23 Feb, 2012  Reply with quote

I come back to this website every now and then to see what's changed. I've been LDing since I was 6, probably started to get in deep with techniques and advanced LDs around 12-15 years ago when this site was new and I found some fellow dreamers exploring just like me.

I come back to look at the threads within Lucid Adventures especially (with a lot of DreamJournal reading) in the hopes to find stories similar to mine, that touch on the same areas that I've struggled with and explored.

I'm disappointed. I'm not going to name and shame and obviously I can never be 100% sure but I'm convinced there are plenty of liars on these forums.

I know what it's like to manipulate your subconscious to attain some sort of long lasting dream. Feeling like you were dreaming for days or even longer. I know the 'mechanics' of it and how the effect dissipates as your mind heals itself afterwards. I've staid conscious throughout entire nights, staying aware as my mind drifted from REM to REM, and experienced deep sleep dream states.

I know these things and I know how they work. I see people making things up on this forum, it's obvious to me since I know what a true story touching on these subjects would look like.

I came back hoping to find some amazing posts. Very few diamonds in the dirt so far but I'll keep going through the journals.


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dB_FTS
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PostPosted: Thu 23 Feb, 2012  Reply with quote

Feel free to give us some advice, share your experiences and your stories. I think they are interesting. I'm new to this so any tip would be great...

Share with us, enlighten us! ^^



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gnargnar
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Re: Disappointment - falsehoods and lack of depth
PostPosted: Thu 23 Feb, 2012  Reply with quote

Omnisomnia wrote:
I've staid conscious throughout entire nights, staying aware as my mind drifted from REM to REM, and experienced deep sleep dream states.


How exactly is that supposed to work? I don't think the mind can even function enough to be "aware" when it is between REM... it gets kinda slow. Like dB_FTS said, feel free to share if you think you know the "right" way to do things, I'm sure a lot of people would like to know.

Omnisomnia wrote:
I know what it's like to manipulate your subconscious to attain some sort of long lasting dream.


I know you didn't mean this, but you have never manipulated my SC... or at least I hope you haven't.... tounge1. But seriously like you said, you can't really know what people have done 100%, especially with something like LDing, there are so many different things people can do that work for them and for no one else, I find it hard to believe that someone would ignore this. If you have been LDing for as long as you say you have been, I don't doubt that you know these things and how they work for you, but you really don't know how they work for others.

If this is that big of an issue, send the people you have a problem with a PM and talk to them about it, they might of left some things out in there post or they might not be telling the truth. Either way, I still find it hard to be disappointed by the post, they are rather entertaining rechterduim omhoog met knipoog



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Omnisomnia
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PostPosted: Thu 23 Feb, 2012  Reply with quote

@FTS
First of all - awesome avatar-

Secondly I realize that in many ways I sound like a total *** in my post. I simply can't help it, seeing all the posts that in my mind are pure fabrication really ticked me off. I mean this is about lucid dreams, not an imagination or 'what if' contest.

Let me say then that there are obviously a great number of honest and truthful individuals on these forums and I apologize for not recognizing that. I do want newcomers to get an honest view about what LDing is or they may just give up when the experience they have is not true to what the expectations the forum gives them.

I also want to learn from others and that's the kind of post I'm searching for at the moment. Maybe you can tell me of some specific threads or journals that have impressed you.

I'll try and start sharing again too, thanks for replying.




Last edited by Omnisomnia on Thu 23 Feb, 2012; edited 1 time in total
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Omnisomnia
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PostPosted: Thu 23 Feb, 2012  Reply with quote

@GnarGnar

This too some extent is a communication problem. It's hard to write your thoughts exactly to make sure everythign you say is understood.

Staying concious throughout one's entire sleep is probably not possible in the traditional sense. What I'm talking about is a method described
in the book 'Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep' (not sure if I got that title right). It outlines ways to stay 'concious' throughout deeper dream states.

Now, the author believes that this is something that would enable you to stay concious even in death. I don't believe that obviously smile but his techniques work
in the sense that you lay there aware of your body, the deeper sleep dreams are much more akin to OOBEs than LDs but they don't last throughout the entire time.
At tome point it's like awareness in complete darkness, you could argue this is an illusion and I would agree, it only 'feels' like you stay concious throughout but
thats more than good enough for me.

" But seriously like you said, you can't really know what people have done 100%, especially with something like LDing, there are so many different things people can do that work for them and for no one else, I find it hard to believe that someone would ignore this. If you have been LDing for as long as you say you have been, I don't doubt that you know these things and how they work for you, but you really don't know how they work for others.
"

I get your point. Still, you may eat with chop sticks and I may eat with a fork but in the end the food goes in the mouth. We are not dealing with magic here but with scientific reality.
You can make arguments about spiritual experience and we are now playing with definitions but in the end they work the same way when we LD.

Having a dream that feels like it lasted for days is false memory creation and mental shortcuts, that's it. There is no magical dream time, or there could be, I'd like to find it. What I will say is that it's highly improbable that all these people found it
and on top of it for mediocre dreams at best.


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BeRightBack
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PostPosted: Fri 24 Feb, 2012  Reply with quote

It's nice to read opposite opinions on subjects like reported very long dreams. No need to apologize for that, just because it's not a popular point of view.

Sometimes I wish I could also see lucid dreaming as traveling to other dimensions, that OOBE's, spirits and dream characters are real and that spending years dreaming is possible.
I'm sure my LD's would feel much more awesome if I did believe all that, but the more lucid I become in a dream, the more aware I become that everything around me isn't real. It seems I'm just too scientific to believe those things.

I don't believe the people that report those dreams are actually lying, but that they just get fooled by false memories. Some day I secretly hope to be proven wrong, though. It sure would be awesome to dream for days or even years, have shared dreams and go to other dimensions, but so far my logical brain tells me otherwise.


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Spider
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PostPosted: Fri 24 Feb, 2012  Reply with quote

"Having a dream that feels like it lasted for days is false memory creation and mental shortcuts, that's it. There is no magical dream time, or there could be, I'd like to find it. What I will say is that it's highly improbable that all these people found it
and on top of it for mediocre dreams at best."

I cannot agree with this, sorry. I didn't have one of those myself, but mind is more powerful than you may think. You spoke of scientific reality, which is not existent in dreams. In dreams there is not a trace of reality and less of scientific. You cannot rely on DR for it's worse than your RL memory, and in RL you probably don't remember your whole past two weeks, and sure you wouldn't your 2 weeks dreamtime. Who can prove that False memory is, infact, real? We have around 5-6 dreams per REM and you multiply it with 3-5 REMs. Maybe FM is just memory from one of those many dreams. Reality is what you believe it to be, and dreams are too. If you believe that you can have long dreams like that, the chances are you really can. Time in dreams is not necessarily dependent on real time. and speaking honestly and logically no one on this world can scientifically verify that you ever had a dream. They can measure your brainwaves etc, but they have no actual proof of that you actually dreamed. I would like to tell you of one example. Lets take two martial art masters when in fight one against the other. After some time their minds speed up processing making their whole world go slow-mo.

If you ever had a situation that could be fatal, you probably experienced that super slow mo phenomenon yourself. In, what you believe to be, last second of your life the time just stops.

To conclude it, I respect your point of view, but even if you are right, you are depriving yourself of some most beautiful experiences in a dream and the fun of trying to achieve something like that. Believing can't hurt, and one day you may be pleasantly surprised if you succeed, and if you don't you still had hell of a experience trying to ahcieve that goal.

Thank you, and love to you all.



Current LD goal(s): Make my dream defaultly begin in a Sanctuary... Every time :)
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Omnisomnia
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PostPosted: Fri 24 Feb, 2012  Reply with quote

@Spider

I meant scientific reality in the sense that our experiences can be naturally explained. In my opinion that does not reduce their beauty. If you thought that I meant physics and chemistry apply to the dream state then obviously you misunderstood me on a fundamental level.

Furthermore, I have had experiences like that which is why I can spot a fake story when I see one.

All this said I agree with your point. When I am in a philosophical mindset I think just like you. And the possibilities for what reality is and how perceptions relate are truly mind boggling. When we communicate though we have to make sense, especially when through written words.

I'm frustrated honestly because I want to find someone better than me. I want someone to fascinate me with their stories. I want to learn new things. I haven't seen or read anything more advanced than what I've done myself.

And no one talks about the details. I've been struggling for example with making weaponry work in LDs for as far as I can remember. The best advice I ever got was from the Matrix movies - realize the truth, there is no spoon.

I've managed to make myself believe that there was an entire season of a TV show taking place in the Arctic. I specifically chose something absurd so I could later realize quickly that it was a dream induced memory. I managed to input memories taking place over my entire lifetime on specific occasions. Catching an episode with my parents while we ate pizza, watching three with my buddies in high school. For three days I couldn't distinguish between this and reality, I just knew that I had done it.

In one dream I 'programmed' myself to idly draw specific doodles on my notepad during specific times in my math class. A DC once challenged me to give myself amnesia, I woke up in panic and it took several minutes for my memories to return.

I've had dreams that seemed to me to have lasted up to 2 months (I believe that's the peak I hit) I managed to make it authentic enough where I felt like the events may have happened a few years in the past. I hope one day to create an environment where I can truly trick the mind to find these events recent. I've also learned that these memories are somehow more shallow than real ones, their 'realness' fades with time. I know this is how it works and I've seen no story that is accurate enough to show me otherwise. All I want is to find these stories, believe me, I feel so alone.


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dB_FTS
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PostPosted: Fri 24 Feb, 2012  Reply with quote

Omnisomnia wrote:
@FTS
First of all - awesome avatar-


Tnx! siiw

I've been practicing lucid dreaming only for 2 years. I have some success but not near yours Omnisomnia, so I can't actually tell from the experience but those are some great stories.

Like you mentioned weaponry, I have a problem with DC. It seems that there are only few DC peer dream and that is funny, because I read about peoples dreams where they have a tons of DC and they talk to them and many other things. Usually when I interact with DC my dream starts to fade[when I'm in LD, but when I'm in NLD then dreams are more stable].

Tell me, do you have any opinion on unified field theory?!

EDIT:

Also in this video this man is very passionate about this unified field theory, he makes me believe in that smile!



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Spider
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PostPosted: Fri 24 Feb, 2012  Reply with quote

@Db_

Look for Nassim Haramein smile he's in the same field, but tends to get a bit sidetracked into assumptions related to religion etc.. but he has a very nice way of explaining thing and is worth a watch. Just to make a note; he didn't go to college or (i think) high school, but rather he took on his education on his own. And still is a accepted member of scientific community.

@Omnisomnia

I hope you don't find writer'scube one of those who are untruthful . I think he's on your level, but has more dream control and his weaponry seems to work wink5 not to mention persistent and self evolving dream worlds. For me the last one is quite impressing.

And don't be frustrated if you think there's no one better than you, maybe you just need to teach someone to do more you can do. When you achieve the max level of knowledge (or you think you maxed) yourself, isn't the next logical step to help others do the same. Sometimes (and to be honest, pretty often) I, while explaining something I know well to someone, end up with realization that I told them even more than I knew. In the process of teaching someone I become aware of the depth of my knowledge and then I began learning from myself on a new level. Mind can always become more expanded. There is no maximum of your capabilities.

I have a Quest for you, which I am currently trying to do. In your dreamworld create a serene and unpopulated place. Have your personal temple there. In that temple you will need two ancient magical books. One is where the conversation with your SC occurs. By writing a question in it, you get answer written back. My first question will be if I can do something for my SC rather than asking of it do something for me first. See where it goes. Other book is a interactive dictionary so you can, in a proper manner, use the phrases found there to communicate with SC IRL.

If books go well, you could ask directly for experiences, which we are debating at the moment, to be real as possible.

I would really like to see you in succeeding what i haven't managed so far.

With Love, Psyder



Current LD goal(s): Make my dream defaultly begin in a Sanctuary... Every time :)
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Omnisomnia
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PostPosted: Fri 24 Feb, 2012  Reply with quote

@Spider

I haven't read his stuff yet, will look into it. There is always a struggle with control though whether an experienced LDer writes out that part of his dreams or not. Remember, even if let's say a bullet doesn't launch from a gun - because again, there are no physical laws - you can just erase that moment by rewriting dream history so to speak. So a DJ entry may be honest, just omitting certain parts. I'm interested in those omitted parts.

I will add your quest to my list smile don't know if yous saw my other thread.

@FTS

I don't know much about it but I believe in it as a paradigm. I think the more we learn in physics the more amazing the world will appear to us. Why do you ask? smile


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dB_FTS
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PostPosted: Fri 24 Feb, 2012  Reply with quote

I asked because if this unified field theory is actually true, then this whole thing about dreams, consciousness, awareness, body - mind relation can be understand on the whole another level.

Either way, I think that now days people are just to close minded and not open to any sort of ideas, because they have too much worries and obligations which came in a way of raising self awareness. I would like to believe in unified field theory then that would mean that we can never die in a traditional sense, we are just living this shell we call body, the consciousness is what matters in this theory.

So dreams may present something more then just some kind of a chemical reaction in our brain, it may represent something more real then we accept!



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Omnisomnia
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PostPosted: Fri 24 Feb, 2012  Reply with quote

Oh I believe there is no such thing as 'just' chemical reactions. There are ways to look at things that make them seem magical and ways to look at things that make them seem depressing, no matter what belief system you hold.

It is obviously advantageous to look at the world as a vast mysterious thing to be discovered no matter what your foundations are. So I do that too, even though I believe the natural and empirical are my best tools.

I'm completely open minded, but I am not gullible. I've risen out of my body -OBE- but I know how this relates to dreaming and LDs so I don't think my soul actually left my body, believing it did is only going to prevent me from discovering new things. Unified field theory I guess applies here because whether things happen in my head or not, they touch everything in a manner of seeing it.


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Spider
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PostPosted: Sat 25 Feb, 2012  Reply with quote

@Omnisomnia

Yes I did see your tread, and it was partially because of it I told you it's a quest smile

Looking forward to your results, you will post them there, right?



Current LD goal(s): Make my dream defaultly begin in a Sanctuary... Every time :)
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