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Mental Enigma
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Questions about DC's
PostPosted: Mon 14 May, 2012  Reply with quote

Im just wonder if you could ask a DC what like 2+2 is or any question would He or she get it right. And I've read up on that you can't read in a lucid dream its just a bunch of random letters. Why not ask a DC to read whats on the paper for you? Would that make any difference maybe they know whats on the piece of paper. Also what would happen if you try to read a DC's mind lol not sure if I asked this in another place. But would you really read there mind and hear what there thinking? Or are they thinking of nothing.

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Lord Antares
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PostPosted: Mon 14 May, 2012  Reply with quote

Well, they have no thoughts as such, it just what your mind thinks, because, of course, they are a creation of your mind. You would probably get a random result.

As for the other questions, you can try them out if you like, but don't take it too seriously, I predict the results will be the same as they would with normal characters in a dream without lucidity.


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dagto
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PostPosted: Tue 15 May, 2012  Reply with quote

Lord Antares wrote:
Well, they have no thoughts as such, it just what your mind thinks, because, of course, they are a creation of your mind. You would probably get a random result.

As for the other questions, you can try them out if you like, but don't take it too seriously, I predict the results will be the same as they would with normal characters in a dream without lucidity.


The random has nothing to do with dream, darling (not aggressive just like a sir).



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Last edited by dagto on Wed 16 May, 2012; edited 1 time in total
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Forty-Two
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PostPosted: Tue 15 May, 2012  Reply with quote

That may be true, but without the dream there would be nothing to be random.


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Lord Antares
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PostPosted: Tue 15 May, 2012  Reply with quote

dagto wrote:

The random has nothing to do with dream, darling.


It absolutely does, in my opinion!

Dreams are a mess of situations thought up by our mind in order to process what happened during the day. Lucid dreams may be a little different, because we can actually alter what the mind processes, but everything still comes from our own imagination.

If you think you can predict the future via dreams, or in other words, that dreams are there to warn us of the future or reveal our destiny, that is only your opinion.


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dagto
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PostPosted: Wed 16 May, 2012  Reply with quote

I don't think we can... How dare you say that it's my point ! It's not. I just said that if dreams are for you just a "mess of situations" and that your imagination is a "random thing" it means that you criticize some jobs on the human psychology and you reduce the human species to one point "random", that is only your opinion.

PS: your wrote "limitless" in your description.



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Lord Antares
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PostPosted: Wed 16 May, 2012  Reply with quote

I am not criticizing the human psychology, I don't see what is wrong with processing stuff into the randomness of dreams, it is not something you do consciously.

We all have to take out the trash from time to time, that doesn't make us a garbage species.

I am not saying dreams are trash, I'm just giving an example.

If dreams aren't random experiences and they aren't precognitive or significant for self improvement, what are they? What's in between?


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dagto
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PostPosted: Wed 16 May, 2012  Reply with quote

We can't say why we dream but we can say that it's what you said "significant for self improvement" (I won't make some joke on what you said about the trash and the precognitive things because I'm more jackie chan (my brain !!) than an other guy on this) but it doesn't mean it's random.

I'm gonna tell you something secret something very important, ALL your dreams are based on your imagination (conscious and unconscious). I think that you know that but I will be more accurate and I will tell you that ALL your imagination is made by you and only you (influenced by the environment etc...). I think you know that too. Now I want you to combine those 2 concepts. And now what you have ? You discovered that the brain doesn't stop to think it's amazing ! I can't believe it it's impossible ! But wait it does mean that my thoughts don't stop at any time... but when I dream I... OH YEAH I understand now ... if I thought to water it's because I want some or because I can't drink some or because I am solving a problem very hard for me or because ... etc etc

So next time you drop a coin on the floor (and you don't know how to calculate the strength you have used for the release) and it falls on the face, you will be able to call that "random" (well it's not really really a random fact but it's metaphoric). But please I beg you on my knee ! the next time you dream, please when you will dream about your crush or yourself flying, please don't call it "random".

Well if you dream about something not very interesting and very repetitive it's because at the moment you didn't think about an interesting thing, and you thought about that in-interesting thing because you thought that and that etc... Well it's because you didn't remember what you were thinking that you say it's random, On the contrary if you had remembered what you were thinking you will say :"it's because I like more this thing than this thing" You can say it is randomly different from person to person but not just "random" I don't think the same way you do and you are lucky to not think my way ........... and ..... that is why we disagree, because we are randomly different.

Glad you understand now the concept of thinking.

PS: I think it's time to put the "precognitive" word in your trash. But, a debate at another time and another place.

<mod>just a friendly reminder, LD4all expects all it's members to respect each other moogle </mod>
"Keep in mind that not everybody has English as a first language." LD4all rules.
I'm not English at all so I am not responsible for the exaggerations of English words which don't appear in French. Take consideration of the words in my culture and everything will be fine, I don't want to be intentionally disrespectful.



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Kache
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PostPosted: Wed 16 May, 2012  Reply with quote

People who do CALD create characters with different personalities than themselves and who seem to have a mind of their own.


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Lord Antares
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PostPosted: Wed 16 May, 2012  Reply with quote

Well, I thought you were disrespectful in your first post.

I still don't understand how dreaming about your crush isn't random.
I know dreams come from our imagination and that's what I've been saying. We think of our crush a lot during the day, so when when we fall asleep, while processing that, we will dream of a random situation with our crush.

That's why we dream about all that ridiculous things. Sheer randomness. And it's helpful too; our brain needs to rest, if we were constantly thinking without pause, we wouldn't last long.

I'm just asking you what you think dreams do then. How do they help us improve ourselves?


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dreamosis
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Re: Questions about DC's
PostPosted: Wed 16 May, 2012  Reply with quote

Mental Enigma wrote:
Im just wonder if you could ask a DC what like 2+2 is or any question would He or she get it right.


Actually, researcher Paul Tholey has wondered the same thing as you and has tested the matter with several lucid dreamers. The study was called CONSCIOUSNESS AND ABILITIES OF DREAM CHARACTERS OBSERVED DURING LUCID DREAMING, and it was conducted in 1989.

In a nutshell, what was found was that many dream characters can indeed perform simple mental math. Apparently, though, dream characters have trouble with sums over 20.

Also, they attempted to test the artistic abilities of dream characters and had fantastic results. Some dream characters could indeed draw things from their own perspective in the dream.

Other dream characters could "independently" come up with rhymes, and in one instance (in the study) a dream character told a dreamer a foreign word that the dreamer did not consciously know or remember that she knew.



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dagto
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PostPosted: Wed 16 May, 2012  Reply with quote

Lord Antares, or can I say my lord ?

You are right, I just put a name on it. How do they improve ourselves ?
It's an interesting question because humans dream and don't know why while in fact it's one of the main door to access to the unconscious (it's still you).
Now you can deduce with what dreamosis said (the art) that it's a sort of expression of the quiet and discrete part of the brain (the one who looks everywhere and memorizes "everything"). And we can analyse dreams to understand human behaviour.



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dreamosis
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PostPosted: Sat 26 May, 2012  Reply with quote

So I walked around in an LD this morning and tested dream characters with simple math. I first tried two young women on the street. I asked them both simple multiplication (with sums larger than 20, though--like "What's 5x7?"). Neither of them answered correctly. I followed them to a party where I questioned two more people, a younger man and a middle-aged woman. Neither of them answered correctly. I felt like everyone at the party was probably hollow so I left it.

Outside again I came across a boy at a chain link fence outside of a ballpark. I asked the boy if he'd answer a few questions for me, but he wanted to know what was in it for him. I dug into my pants and, luckily, found my wallet. I opened to check it for money and found several bills, and a few receipts and wrappers. Without looking closely, I handed the boy a "bill." He said, "Hey, this is a candy wrapper." I looked down and it was a candy bar wrapper. So I dug into the wallet again and found a $20 bill. The boy was impressed and greedily took the $20.

I asked him three simple multiplication questions and he got them all correct. I remember one of the questions was "What's 5x5?" Another was 7x6, and after supplying "42" he muttered a joke that I didn't catch or can't now remember, but I think was related to Douglas Adams' "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Universe." After the third question, his friends arrived and they wanted to watch a baseball game together on top of the dugout. I climbed up there with them, eager to test the boy further. Despite the fact that I'd proven to myself that some characters fail these questions and some (or at least one so far) had gotten the questions right, I decided that multiplication answers (like 5x5) might be accessed with visual memory. That is, the boy may not be "doing math" at all, I thought, but simply using my visual memory of a multiplication table.

So, thinking that, on top of the dugout, I asked the boy a simple subtraction question. I asked him "What's 42-11?" He answered, "511" ("five eleven"). I laughed and I took this to mean he meant "five feet, eleven inches." I told him that 5'11" would equal 71 inches and the answer to the subtraction problem was 31.

At that point my girlfriend, IRL, shook me and I woke up.

**

Regardless of the consciousness and abilities of dream characters, I realize that I proved to myself that I'm quite capable of performing simple math in an LD. I spontaneously came up with multiplication questions with sums larger than 20 and I knew the answers as I asked them, and knew that dream characters had gotten them wrong.

Also, it might be tempted to say that the little boy only knew the correct answers because I knew them, but then how do I explain that four characters before him did not know the answers? I would describe my frame of mind when I began the test as excited. I wanted the dream characters to respond correctly. I wouldn't say that I was disappointed after they failed; I would say I was curious and amused. They were so sure that their answers were right. For instance, I would ask "What's 6x5?" and they would off-handedly say, "44." Some answers they first four gave weren't even close!

Curiously, in Tholey's study one of the experimentee LDers also got correct answers from a child.

I'm impressed by the fact that I was able to do math in a dream so easily, and that I performed a multi-step operation. I didn't automatically know that 5'11" was 71 inches. I had to think about it. I thought to myself, before correcting the boy, "Well, 5x12=60. Add 11 and you have 71."

Last, I cannot help but wonder if the Expectation effect might have been at work in the subtraction question. Did the boy fail the question because I doubted his ability? (Yet, again, I wouldn't say I doubted the others' ability. I was merely open to what they said, I feel.) He could have gotten the multiplication questions right because of my visual memory of the answer, but why didn't the others access my visual memory if that's so? Subtraction could be more difficult because it requires an intermediate step; it requires memory. Yet in other contexts dream characters exhibit memory.

Curiouser and curiouser...



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dagto
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PostPosted: Sun 27 May, 2012  Reply with quote

mystery of dreams ... I can't help you.


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Lord Antares
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PostPosted: Sun 27 May, 2012  Reply with quote

I would say that was exactly what happened; he accessed your memory and knew the answer only because you did.

As to why others didn't, perhaps you weren't thinking of the answer at the time of asking? Maybe you did with the boy. Maybe you had higher expectations with him because he was different, a boy, or maybe because he was alone?

Anyway, I think this would prove that DCs are nothing more than our imagination. It was a great thing you went out and tested it; if you had such great results and good memory, you might be an LD tester ^^


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